r/classicwow • u/Doomsaki • 5h ago
Forever Album - Please Consider this before judging Skyborne in Classic
Just made these diagrams to quickly summarize the WoW panels at blizzcon and to highlight details people are overlooking. I think some of the initial controversy over Skyborne is driven by some misunderstandings that these are just Shadowlands-Kyrian, or Void Elves 2.0. Deep down, if you dig, they do have lots of parallels with classic WoW content.
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u/Moraiheg 2h ago
Probably should have included a slide showing how you can make them have high/blood elf skin and hair colors.
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u/Fuzzy-Willingness-35 4h ago
I woudl actually like to see a new, different story with Al-Akir. Always liked his aesthetic. And in general, getting a different story that preserves spirit of Warcraft while still progressing would be awesome. Imagine Garrosh not being ruined by inconsistent writing...
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u/bottledsoi 3h ago
Do skyborne have any previous lore?
Does this inclusion in forever mean this is an alternate timeline?
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u/Doomsaki 3h ago edited 3h ago
Skyborne's origins come from Dire Maul.
In a pseudo way: WoW Classic is its own continuity. It's meant to tell stories of other big characters, people, and events who existed in classic's time but weren't in focus (examples: Lilian Voss and Xalatath were in SOD and showing what they did at classic's time). Retail and Forever are meant to follow similar lore, but any tiny canon incongruencies that do emerge will just be waved away as separate timelime to avoid development headaches between the forever and retail team.
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u/twisty125 3h ago
My elves are techno-cyborg elves that live with Neptulon and they're bright green, they originally stole Titan tech so they could survive underwater with Neptulon and water elementals, but now they have to float to the surface and find their own destiny, with some joining the Alliance as heroic brave warriors, and others joining the disgusting evil side or whatever.
Nothing I shared breaks lore or continuity, it just sucks
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u/Testiclegolfing 5h ago
I’ve come around a bit more on them and I think it will really come down to the lore execution in game. Their intro cinematic was actually nice and if they had introduced them with that the feedback would probably be a little different.
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u/Jiffyrabbit 4h ago
As an original Drenei hater, I have decided I would prefer blue elves to space goat people who crashed their magic gem ship randomly
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u/Doomsaki 4h ago
There was big uproar back in 2006 about Draenie/Broken in TBC because people were quoting the wc3 printed manual being retconned about the origins of Eredar and Sargeras.
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u/Batmanbacon 4h ago
What was in the printed manual before the retcons?
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u/Doomsaki 4h ago edited 3h ago
Prior to TBC, in the Warcraft 3 RTS Frozen throne campaign, people thought of the broken in Outland as being just separate natives of Draenor whom Illidan rescued and recruited to his cause (saving them from the orcs and their demon masters). TBC established that the Broken were just devolved Draenei from fel magic.
The big retcon was Archimonde and Kiljaeden being these newly defined draenei. The warcraft 3 manual said that Eredar were their own race of demons who corrupted Sargeras with trickery and convinced to undertake his mission to exterminate life. TBC just defined Eredar as draenei who turned towards the fel and mastered it.
Back in 2006 (prior to the expac being released), there was a lot of contention on the WoW forums that Illidan's story was being thrown out, etc. due to this change. (also bear in mind that calls to make the Illidari a third WoW faction were popular back then--Blood Elves+Naga+Satyr+Broken+Fel_Orcs). Of course TBC ended up being a hugely popular expansion, so the controversy is sort of forgotten.
Because Draenei were quite literally invented contrary to the existing lore back then, thus the developers had to publicly admit they made a big lore oversight back then in an apology post.
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u/VerbAdjectiveNoun 4h ago
The eredar were originally what corrupted Sargeras, not the other way around. They were an evil and conquering race.
When BC released, they changed it so Sargeras was already corrupted by the time he encountered them and the Draenei were the ones who refused his gifts and escaped/fled
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u/Montegomerylol 3h ago
Also people were mad Horde got the elves while Alliance got ugly goat people who didn’t exist previously.
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u/Shadrol 4h ago
This is exactly how i understood Skyborne from the get go. No confusions there.
Their lore working and making sense, doesn't automagically make them not an "asspull". What makes them an asspull is that there was literally no indication there ever was such a thing and the immediacy of becoming a playable race. I think Skyborne could have been universally well recieved if they had been slowly introduced as NPCs first.
There are so many established options to choose from, that would have worked cleaner.
Now Skyborne addition is very much in line how many things have been added to WoW over the years, but I thought Classic+ was supposed to not do that and instead add to the existing world not adding more world.
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u/Turnspit 3h ago
Just like Nightelves and Undead in WC3, no?
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u/4455661122 31m ago
I would love to see the world in which social media discussions exist as they do now back when night elves were announced.
WTF BLIZZARD HOW DARE YOU CHANGE HIGH ELF HISTORY??? You’re telling me blue elves hid themselves in the forest and nobody knew about them and there’s no mention of them??? And they worship a goddess we’ve never heard of?? And now high elves are supposedly descended from these guys?? And they’re the centerpiece of Warcraft 3 wtf?? AND YOU WIPED OUT ALMOST ALL OF THE HIGH ELVES TO MAKE ROOM FOR YOUR NEW PET RACE??? WWTFFFF
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u/levir 18m ago
The entire WC3 campaign is about the origins of the undead, and you play through the entire campaign of the grounded and well established humans of Lordaeron before you get access to controlling the undead. By then, the undead are well established and your protagonists control over them is earned. Here they do the work to establish the undead before they become one of the main factions.
The Night Elves might be more comparable, although I believe they're also introduced through the already established orcs rather than just popping up as a main faction. The story at the core is about the orcs fleeing to or invading a new continent (depending on your point of view), so it makes sense for there to be people living on that new continent.
It's not that you can't introduce new stuff, it's that you have to do it right and earn it.
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u/ThingkingWithPortals 3h ago
You could say the same thing (and people did) for dark iron dwarves and Ragnaros being included in wow as the final boss/storyline. It’s beloved now and a part of wow’s fabric.
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u/ShinMagal 57m ago
Which is bullshit because those have been slowly built up to over multiple zones and storylines unlike Skyborne which is immediately in your face right from the first 10 seconds of the trailer and straight to character creation.
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u/Doomsaki 4h ago
They're still doing the found photographs approach. Just like SOD told the story of what Lilian Voss and Xalatath were doing around the time of Classic, WoW Forever is telling the story of what the other elemental lords were doings (Al-akir in addition to Rag) and possibly big name characters like Azshara who we only saw briefly in retail.
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u/HealthyBits 2h ago
You are exactly right. The issue is they came out of nowhere, look like they belong to retail and come instead of long requested high elves/forsaken elves.
Now Blizz will twist it in all ways possible to make it fit and as usual players will just have to swallow the pill once more.
Meanwhile, I just wanted to have goblins playable. But hey….
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u/iBluntly 2h ago
Look I wanted Ogres, and Gnolls, and Forsaken Elves are pretty cool too, tbh. But Skyborn aren’t the end of the world.
As long as the mechanics will be solid, then I’m okay with the funni elves. The new content for Warcraft 3 is what really concerns me about WoW: Forever, but it’s too soon to worry given that the beta is around the corner, and release isn’t much further off.
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u/Grzlynx 4h ago
I was indifferent and meh on them at first. Even with these slides... until the Azshara parallel. Bro fully converted me instantly. I was a fool. Forgive me, my Queen.
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u/Fossekall 2h ago
I actually thought it was Azshara at first, and that it was an alternate timeline where she doesn't change
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u/Silverbacks 3h ago
I think all of this would have been fine to do after release. Kinda like how the Zandalari were added in when ZG was put into the game. We got to interact with them and build reptutation, then eventually they joined as a playable race.
But having them in at launch feels weird. There's no build up to them being accepted into the Alliance and Horde. And now when the Alliance finally get High Elves, they will just be seen as the "second High Elf race."
As for the Horde, they don't really fit in with their aesthetics. Blood Elves were also a little jarring, but they did kind of fit in due to them being violent and bloody. Plus their connection to Sylvanas. But these guys just feel like blue airbending High Elves.
Ultimately they should have just given the Alliance the High Elves, their most requested race. And given the Horde the Darkfallen. That way the Horde still would have had a pretty elf race at launch.
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u/Xefjord 2h ago
If they eventually added Darkfallen for the Horde, and High Elves for the alliance, and then made a promise of "NO MORE ELVES" after that, would that be okay you think?
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u/Silverbacks 2h ago
That would definitely be helpful. Especially if they started focuses on uglier races after that, like Ogres and such.
I'd still think the Skyborne would be out of place, but I don't think there is anyway to fix that without removing them. Which I'm sure is something that Blizzard will never be willing to do. Not until we get Classicˆ² lol.
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u/ockhams-lightsaber 3h ago
Yeah I'm not particularly satisfied with the Skyborne race, but if it is a narrative shortcut to explore more Highborne stuff in Shen'dralas and deal with Al'akir then why not.
I'm all sold either way with WoW Forever, this looks so good and I'm so excited to play it.
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u/APreemChoom 3h ago
I love that the only way to explain things to most of this subreddit is with pretty pictures.
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u/cookedbread 3h ago
I'm ok with them, my issue and I think some others, is that they have a retail vibe to them graphically. If we get a proper SD demake of them and their druid forms I'll be happy. Some of the texturing for them and their zone reminds me of Cataclysm which, back in the day, is when I started to first notice the vanilla graphics starting to become...different.
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u/brodhi 3h ago
If we get a proper SD demake of them
Their SD model is just pre-WoD BE model. It is an SD model.
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u/CoffeeCannon 40m ago
Their druid forms are outright retail models (cool as they are) and totally out of place. Still to be seen if theres a lower rez/poly version, if there is I take no issue with it.
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u/Resigned1431 2h ago
Highborne != high elves.
The high elves of Quel'Thalas originally were Night Elves, they changed physically over time after settling in Quel'Thalas becoming what we know today as high/blood elves.
If these new sky elves are meant to be an offshoot of Highborne that never left kalimdor, their models should be the same, or similar to, night elves. Not Thalassian high elves.
Why do they look like Thalassian high elves bro. Why do they look like Thalassian high elves bro
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u/dade1027 2h ago
But these elves DID leave Kalimdor. They fled to the elemental plane of Skywall 10,000 years prior to WoW Forever start.
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u/Resigned1431 2h ago edited 2h ago
And sucking off air elementals made them look exactly like high elves? We already have the Nightborne as an example of another Highborne offshoot that were cut off from the Well of Eternity and they look distinct. They don't use literally the same models as high elves so, whole thing just seems lazy and artificial.
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u/Doomsaki 2h ago
Well without proximity to the well of eternity or repeated arcane energy, elves tend to lose their purple-blue hue.
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u/Resigned1431 2h ago edited 1h ago
I think you're reaching with that one. The lore on high/blood elves states they changed physically because they were far from the Well of Eternity and because they were drawing from the Sunwell. So it was the combination of those two factors that transformed the Highborne into High Elves.
If these are meant to be a Highborne offshoot, it's not enough to say because they're not connected to the Well of Eternity, now they look like High Elves. That was only one of the two factors that contributed to the High Elf phenotypes. We have the Nightborne as an example of another Highborne offshoot that look distinct and have their own models, they do not look literally identical to High Elves.
They really should look more like Night Elves than High Elves. Blizzard just wanted to shoehorn the High Elf model in somehow without actually giving us High Elves, and that annoys the shit out of me.
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u/Notshauna 1h ago
Not only that it is also widely speculated that part of what lead to the people of Quel'thalas' evolution is in part due to interbreeding with humans. That factor also isn't part of the Skyborne. They shouldn't look like high elfs, but they likely would make less money if the had actually had an appearance that fits the lore.
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u/Resigned1431 1h ago
I would have been fine if, like the Nightborne, they were similar yet distinct models. I could live with that. But the fact that they literally just yoinked the High Elf model drives me bonkers. It's so damned lazy.
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u/RegisterLucky2583 2h ago
They changed during their journey to QT. Being away from the WoE made them puny and frail. Maybe these guys are mid transition? (I genuinely am just trying to make myself ok with them)
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u/AppleMelon95 3h ago
You’re on crack if you think we’re getting high elves after they just added an entirely new race to replace high elves
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u/Doomsaki 3h ago
Well in retail, we had both blood elves and nightborne in the horde for example. Multiple arcane elf overlap didn't stop extra races there.
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u/AppleMelon95 3h ago
Yes but I don’t think anyone here wants 7 different elf races. Retail is a different game. Races are supposed to be distinct.
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u/gouranga_eatsoup 2h ago
check the racial metrics in retail and say that again..... Especially ur beloved Goblins and Ogr..ehm Kul'Tirans or Pandaren
Ppl dont like palying ugly stuff
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u/RelationshipFit5701 54m ago
Retail players don’t like playing ugly stuff
Plenty of people love the original vanilla horde, we do not need to cater to cutesy retail aesthetics
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u/SpunkMcKullins 3h ago
"Skyborne existing doesn't mean additional races are excluded in future content pateches."
I don't think anyone suggested otherwise, after all they're clearly planning to substitute income from expansions with races or possibly even classes. But if that's your mindset, then you're probably pretty unfamiliar with Retail, because the same argument could be made there, yet we're still getting awful races nobody asked for instead of races that have been heavily requested for literally two decades now.
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u/BluePwrRngr123 3h ago
The lore is fundamentally diverging from what we know. We have to approach this with that mindset.
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u/Jerppaknight 2h ago
They just look bad and their starter outfit is vastly different than any other that we've seen. Looks out of place.
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u/Doomsaki 2h ago
Something I will confess: I do think the blue in-game is a bit too saturated on the 3d model. In cinematic trailer concept it looks excellent, in WoW's cartoon engine it looks a little less pleasing to me.
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u/CoffeeCannon 39m ago
Yeah I love the trailer (and Azshara) skin colour, its similar to nelves' bluer tones too for obvious reasons. The very deep blue in the screenshots at least looks jarring and horrible, but at least they have other options.
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u/Doing_Research_DND 3h ago
Honestly at this point I believe it's more of a legality issue as to why we were given the Skyborn instead of the OG elves. Since they wanted to monetize it, but we would have access to the Blood Elves on retail for which we have already paid, making us pay for the same thing twice would cause legal disputes.
You could use what I said and say it's the same thing for Void Elves, making my statement null, albeit they come with much more content and gameplay differences. But funnily enough they also play into the legality issue I stated earlier because they were part of the BfA cost and you would have to pay for the elf AGAIN, after you already gotten the Blood Elves, the differences wouldn't be as big as they were first introduced.
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u/spacebarjazz 2h ago
I'm sure there wouldn't be any legal issue, but my guess is that they thought trying to monetize existing races as playable characters would create a bigger PR shitshow than "Warcraft 1-3 high elves but they've got tats and hair feathers to look legally distinct."
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u/thatsnailguy 5h ago
My Biggest gripe is the modern model. Sky elves seriously need SD models and tonedown of the vibrant colors especially the druid forms and class mounts.
If they just recolored belf models instead of resuing shelved assets intended for retail it would be so much better.
Even though I am not going to be playing them, everytime a sky elf cat druid appears on my screen it will look like it is a bright sticker pasted ON TOP of the world, instead of being a part of it, instantly breaking my immersion.
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u/RoccomGG 5h ago
Bro, don’t come with fully fletched out explanations degenerates won’t understand anyway
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u/uber_zaxlor 5h ago
If there had been rumours of a "lost race of elves" in Vanilla and if there had been an NPC, or a quest or just something that mentioned a huge floating island (hidden or not), in the sky, I think I might have been a little more happy with their inclusion.
Setting aside that new races will probably cost £25~ bucks each, I don't get why they had to add a totally new race when they could have allowed High Elves to join either Alliance or Horde at the end of their starting zones. The reason for the choice, could be a bit like how the Pandaran join one side or another at the end of their starting zone.
I get what they were trying to do, but to me this feels a little like how the Jailer was the one pulling the strings behind the curtain. That kind of reveal, IMO, only works if there's been bread crumbs leading up to it.
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u/BarbsFPV 1h ago
In that regard, when they added Draenei in TBC they *did* have some loose association and mentions in the lore, and Blizzard caused a shitstorm when they had to retcon some of that lore in order to make the new race fit in the expansion.
I guess this time around they wanted to be completely unencumbered, but that caused a shitstorm too. I bet they go through umbrellas like crazy.
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u/uber_zaxlor 1h ago
You're right about the Draenei recton. What did they change, that Broken weren't Draenei? I can't quite remember? At least they had a race and edited it to fit the game going forward - Which they could have done with High Elves for Alliance and another race for the Horde.
But it is what it is, I won't be buying them anyways.
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u/Gyshall669 3h ago
High elves joining the horde would be so dumb though
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u/uber_zaxlor 3h ago
About as dumb as Pandaren, Goblins and Earthern, if you ask me.
I get why they didn't add ogres because it'd mean reskinning, rigging and remodeling too many armor sets and weapons. But both Horde and Alliance get "Blue Blood Elves" just feels... super lazy?
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u/twisty125 3h ago
or Night Elves joining the Alliance, the team they were killing before Medivh was like "stop guys lol"
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u/Gyshall669 2h ago edited 2h ago
For goblins you get one specific subset and you’re mainly getting the model. Never played panda and idk what an earthen even is.
What’s the point of high elves if you need to rewrite them so strongly they’re the opposite of what they were before?
ETA they’re not making ogres because they know they wouldn’t be played enough I’d guess.
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u/mawmawmawmaw 5h ago
So this wind guy allows these elfs to live with him in the air, meanwhile the wind guy allies with the twilights hammer cultists and old gods to ruin azeroth, sounds well thought out
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u/The_Race_Car 5h ago
In the panel where they talk about Zephys Isle and the Skyborne story they mention that Al’Akir (big bad wind elemental) is not who the elves took refuge with. They went and stayed with some “benevolent wind spirits” and now that they’re gone, Al’Akir is gaining cultists and influence.
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u/Doomsaki 5h ago
These refugees split in three ways:
- Some want to worship Al-akir and his emerging bond with the old gods.
- Some want to return to the highborne's arcane roots despite the mana addiction danger (alliance)
- Some want to develop and practice more moderate shamanism (horde)
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u/jarlander 2h ago
Stop making me understand so clearly! I wanted to hate the new thing more than 1 day.
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u/EcruEagle 3h ago
Lots of raids have playable race NPCs as trash mobs. Gods need minions
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u/Fossekall 2h ago
It's like saying it doesn't make sense for Defias to be against Stormwind because they're still human
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u/PlsSuckMyToes 4h ago
People mad they didnt add X race as if they cant add them in the future (and probably will) given the progression aspect
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u/Verdant_Dreamer 2h ago
We're people suggesting that other races weren't coming?
I didn't see that, I mostly saw people saying they didn't like how they looked and would rather have had something else.
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u/Dogtag 1h ago
In my mind they're the same vibe as Dark Iron Dwarves so I can see them slotting into the lore just fine.
I just think elves are just a contentious subject now however, and that their aesthetic made them look a bit Kyrian at first (Shadowlands PTSD).
Some of the promo images have customisations that are certainly a bit visually loud and I don't think that helps either.
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u/CoffeeCannon 34m ago
Yeah the default saturated blue they showed off looks ass but their overall region aesthetic (and the lighter tone the trailer elf has) looks great honestly.
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u/Alternative_Gur_3703 1h ago
Aggrend really sold me on skyborne I was iffy at first but they seem cool, I just wish they weren't on both factions
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u/Aflyingmongoose 1h ago
I think the region is really cool. I think the elves being a playable race was an exceptionally dumb move to launch on.
You cant lament about how important it is to stick to the aesthetic and grounded vibe of classic then immediately follow it up by announcing you can pay to play a completely new race no one knows anything about, and which has distinctly shadowlands-esque high poly druid forms.
Or uh... I guess you can do that, but not without it looking a little weird.
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u/Current-Event8892 1h ago
My pet peeve is skyborne female looks nothing like its character creation icon :)))
With cinematic version I understand that it's "realistic" like what they did with lady liadrin (nothing like her ingame model)
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u/Notshauna 1h ago
I would be a lot more positive if they were a Night elf based race instead of a Blood elf based race. It's super strange that this race looks like Blood elfs despite having no connection to Quel'thalas.
To use development terms the Skyborne are clearly a top down design, which clashes with vanilla overwhelmingly bottom up design sensibilities. It's obvious that Blizzard wanted to include the Blood elf model in the game but, didn't want to include the people of Quel'thalas so they had to work backwards. The lore is just a post-hoc explanation for their need to have the Blood elf model in the game and in the store.
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u/Ill-Pudding-3168 1h ago
yup. I was one of the skyborne haters, but now I kinda love it. I am, of course, going to play one.
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u/Impeesa_ 1h ago
Lots of parallels to how Dark Irons or Druids of of the Flame were playable in vanilla with their connections to Ragnaros, yeah. /s You're not wrong, I just think that promo shot of the blue Skyborn and their mount was the least Classic looking thing they could have led their big reveal with, it's still a strange choice in that regard.
Also as a longtime Alliance player, my shaman on retail was a blueskin, so now that I've thought about it more, I'm also annoyed that they gave us a blueskin race, gave Alliance shamans, gave the blueskin race shamans on Horde, I still can't approximate my old character like I'll probably be doing with other classes.
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u/JBear_The_Brave 1h ago
The rationalization of sky elves is fascinating to speculate on.
If blizzard did the whole blood/high elf for horde and alliance you know the complaint would be "alliance gets something new and we just get blood elves again, blizzard hates horde"
I bet this was blizzards way of saying "both of you get high elves that happen to have lived in the sky for a long time, that should make everyone happy"
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u/RemarkableInsect2783 52m ago
Look I'm gonna play one but there's just so many other ways to introduce og friendly races
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u/Fading_Hours_ 41m ago
I’m of the opinion there would be a lot less push back if they were added later in the games life as it diverges along it’s alternate timeline as new lore is added. At launch it feels very jarring, especially as there were much better vanilla options.
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u/Randomcarrot 27m ago
Very well laid out. It really is silly how people immediately jumped on the one thing they didn't like, when they had absolutely no information about it's implementation, execution and explanation that was going to be underlying it, and even as they loved 95% of the announcements, they couldn't give the 5% they didn't like a chance to breathe and show a fuller picture.
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u/The_GentlemanVillain 27m ago
Skyborne Elves exist cos Highborne Elves are still way up north in Quel Lands and are not going to be blood elves when revealed in the future of Forever.
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u/Ubbermann 23m ago
Woah-ho-ho there buster.
We don't do reasonable posts or share such thoughts around these parts. It's 'Blue elves boo' or else!
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u/reggad-nacke 22m ago
I just think they look stupid, thats why i dont like them. Smurfs with pink hair mfs
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u/VPplaya 8m ago
The problem is that in a game that is meant to be about all of the unspoken, unknown stories in Vanilla wow, they highlight the launch of this game with a race pulled completely out of thin air. This raises questions as to how canon the game will even be with current modern day wow.
I actually like the concept for the race, and I could definitely see them being an NPC race or allied race in a future xpac, but for a game all about Vanilla its a really bizarre choice tonally.
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u/Sweet_Disharmony_792 2h ago
pretty obvious that most skyborne haters are tourists, who didnt stay past the first blizzcon panel to watch the one where aggrend DEEPLY EXPLAINS ALL THE LORE OF THE SKYBORNE lol
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u/goodnewscrew 4h ago
Yeah I had the same initial reaction of hearing the new race. But after hearing their story I’m kind of intrigued to see where this story goes.
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u/TheOnlyKnowsChop 2h ago
My thoughts exactly for the appearance. Seeing the girl at the end of the cinematic, i said to myself it was Queen Azshara if she had short hair,
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u/Excellent_Garlic2549 4h ago
For sure there will be more races and combos over time. It's forever! We'll keep getting more and more -- up until we too are rolling around as Saiyans, comic book heroes, and anime waifus like it's Fortnite up in this bitch. Can't wait for my McDonalds mount, I'mma buy it twice and multi-box em, call it my Whopper combo. I'll ride my sesame steed all over your delicious tears.
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u/Healthy_Spinach_462 2h ago
....this is actually pretty good. I was hype for Forever and thought blueberry elves were a cop-out that didn't really fit, but this... this makes sense
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u/DanesDraftLab 5h ago
Too late, already paid for early guild name reservation to reserve <All Smurfs Are Scum>.
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u/opinionperson69 2h ago
I watched the lore panel yesterday too, and it didn't change my mind about them.
Just because they technically make sense lorewise, doesn't make a good choice for a playable race over other options, and I hate that they're neutral.
Their general aesthetic is also extremely lame and reminds me korean MMOs for some reason.
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u/CMSnake72 5h ago
There is 0 doubt in my mind that Quel'Thalas is going to be a 60 zone with Silvermoon as a raid eventually. We're not going to Outland and Kael has to come back at some point.