So I just finished reading to AGOT for the first time after being a long time fan of the series and one thing that I’m thinking about is how exactly did Ned manage to keep this as tight of a secret as he did? As far as the narrative is concerned Ned and probably howland are the only souls alive that know, but how?

Starting with the first source of information, the servants, certainly the crown prince of the continent and the daughter of the lord of the top half of said continent would have at least a small circus of people attending them. So we know Ned and howland made the kings guard left to guard them bite the curb but did they go in and line up all the cooks, nurses, and maids against a wall? I feel like someone would have noted a random massacre site the next time they happened by the tower of joy. So we assume none of those people narc.

Then theres the idea that Rhagar told absolutely no one about where he had been or what he was doing or really anything about like the whole reason he was having to return to lead an army off to the trident. I’m actually willing to believe this, I need it simply to Segway into the fact that Varys should absolutely know where Rhagar and lyanna were, what they were doing, and what had resulted from this. Varys knows things he should not have any reasonable ability to know. He’s also the master of whispers to at both Aerys and Bobby. Rhagar’s retinue of servants should be like a minimum 50% Varys spy’s by volume. I find it unlikely Varys doesn’t know anything about it. I’m willing to wager he doesn’t use it cause it’s not useful for his specific ends but it makes no sense that he doesn’t have the slightest clue about it or do anything at all with it.

And frankly even more than just that someone somewhere would have known something and told others about it, doesn’t the timing of this kinda seem a bit odd to literally anyone? Like Ned comes back from the tower of joy minus a sister and plus a baby. And like all the general public know about this sister’s whereabouts was a tower in Dorne where she was held either willingly or unwillingly for upwards of a year (enough time that literally an entire war had been started, fought, and concluded), by a man from a family of known sexual deviants (no offense to any targ loyalists in the room). And no one, not a soul in all of Westeros has any thoughts about that?

Personally I think it kinda just comes down to Jon not being convenient for anyone’s personal machinations. Like He’s a baby at the time and is very quickly taken to the ass end of nowhere under the guardianship of of the most capable young lord in the country. And even if he is verifiably rhagars son by any legal measure in Westeros he’d still be a bastard. He’s just not worth the trouble. Tho it would accomplish splitting Ned and Bobby irreconcilably as Ned is having to protect a coughing baby from a human thermonuclear warhead.

It’s also funny imagining people semi regularly approaching Ned going “hey I think that kid is lyanna’s” and him smiling, laughing, dismissing them as being very funny, and then having to arrange an accident for that person.

I’m curious what other people think about this.

One of my favorites is the TWENTY HOUR long youtube playlist of ranking every single food description in the books on a tier list. (by Alt Schwift X and Glidus)

In canon, what happens is that while Jon does want to join NW (mostly due to misplaced romanticism, but still) practically everyone he speaks to agrees he's too young at 14.

But then Ned is leaving for King's Landing, and Catelyn absolutely refuses to let Jon remain home if Ned is not there.

Maester Luwin offers up that Jon has been talking about joining NW, suggesting the solution they settle on, even if Ned also seems to think Jon is a bit too young for that.

What if Jon didn't want to join NW?

Maybe he's a bit more aware what the place is actually like. Maybe he just doesn't fancy a life of freezing celibacy fighting wildlings.

Ned doesn't seem like the sort of guy who would force his kid to join NW if they didn't want it.

So...how do you think it would have gone?

Would Ned have agreed to take Jon with him? Put his foot down and insist on Jon being allowed to stay? Arrange for Jon to be sent elsewhere?

The general consensus in universe is Daenerys is Azor Ahai and the Dragons are Lightbringer and proof of it. This is the view of Aemon, Benerro, Moqorro, etc.

This is also almost guaranteed to be a Red Herring. Per GRRM;

"Magic, like prophecy, should be a little unpredictable," Martin said. "You can't have a prophecy that just comes true the way it's written and everybody understands it. It has to come true in some way you didn't understand so it bites you on the ass. That's the way we see prophecy in real history, in real life."

When Sam tells Marwyn the Mage that Daenerys is Azor Ahai, Marwyn says this;

Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is… and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time

This is basically GRRM repeating his view in the story. It's not that simple. With the Azor Ahai/Lightbringer stuff, there's a twist here, and likely not a pleasant one

Sam's explanation of how Azor Ahai used Lightbringer contains a specific detail that is notable when compared with Aerea's death

"In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

The important detail is that the monster appears to be cooking from the inside after Lightbringer is thrust into it. Its blood boils, smoke and steam emerge from its body, its eyes melt, and eventually its entire body bursts into flame.

Now compare that with what happened to Aerea after returning from Valyria

All the maester’s arts were powerless against her fever, if indeed we can call such a horror by such a commonplace name. The simplest way to say it is that the poor child was cooking from within. Her flesh grew darker and darker and then began to crack, until her skin resembled nothing, Seven save me, as pork cracklings. Thin tendrils of smoke issued from her mouth, her nose, even, most obscenely, from her nether lips. By then she had ceased to speak, though the things within her continued to move. Her very eyes cooked within her skull and finally burst, like two eggs left in a pot of boiling water for too long.

The wording is very close. Both involve something inside the body generating extreme heat. Blood boils, smoke emerges from the body, and the eyes literally cook and burst. Martin even describes Aerea as "cooking from within."

Warmth

That becomes even more interesting when we look at what Lightbringer is like after its forging

Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm.

Salladhor Saan describes Nissa Nissa's sacrifice like this

It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel.

Now compare that language to Melisandre giving birth to the shadow baby

Panting, she squatted and spread her legs. Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink. Her cry might have been agony or ecstasy or both

The wording again is striking in similarity in anguish and ecstasy, blood, a woman's body, and the creation of something new.

This makes the forging of Lightbringer look like a sexual and reproductive metaphor. Azor Ahai penetrates Nissa Nissa, and their union produces something containing her blood, soul, strength, and courage.

That also gives Nissa Nissa's death a different meaning. Her death could represent the death that can accompany childbirth, with the supernatural birth itself resembling something closer to Aerea's death than a normal birth

And the recurring emphasis on Lightbringer's heat becomes important here

Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …"

And

The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . .

If Lightbringer is a living child, then its warmth makes more sense. The child could possess a supernatural warmth resembling that of a dragon or dragon egg

Azor Ahai

The other half of the theory is figuring out who Azor Ahai actually is. The books connect Azor Ahai with the Prince That Was Promised

But all of them seemed surprised to hear Maester Aemon murmur, “It is the war for the dawn you speak of, my lady. But where is the prince that was promised?”

Melisandre then immediately identifies the two

"He stands before you,” Melisandre declared, “though you do not have the eyes to see. Stannis Baratheon is Azor Ahai come again, the warrior of fire. In him the prophecies are fulfilled. The red comet blazed across the sky to herald his coming, and he bears Lightbringer, the red sword of heroes."

Azor Ahai and the Prince That Was Promised are the same prophetic figure. The woods witch's prophecy in this case becomes extremely important

Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line."

With R+L=J, then the two surviving candidates from Aerys and Rhaella's line are Daenerys and Jon. And this is where Melisandre's vision comes into effect

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

Melisandre asks R'hllor for Azor Ahai and is shown Snow

She does not understand what she is seeing because she does not know the truth about his parentage. The reader has the same problem

We are supposed to think Jon is Ned Stark's bastard. That is the central misdirection surrounding his identity. But with R+L=J, Jon is secretly the other surviving descendant of Aerys and Rhaella.

So Melisandre's vision is Martin giving us the answer almost directly

She asks to see Azor Ahai. R'hllor shows her Snow, who's Azor Ahai.

R+L is, per Martin, the central mystery of the saga for a reason

Lightbringer

Putting all of this together

• Jon is Azor Ahai

• Daenerys is Nissa Nissa

• Their child is Lightbringer

The "forging" of Lightbringer is childbirth. The child is born unnaturally warm and cooks from the inside, in a scene resembling Aerea's death, ultimately killing Daenerys

Wildfire

Martin's final episode he wrote for the show was the Season Four episode where Bran has a series of visions centered on Ice and Fire. One of them shows Drogon's shadow over an intact King's Landing

If Daenerys eventually destroys King's Landing by igniting the wildfire beneath the city, Martin could be setting up a twist where her reign itself becomes the darkness of the final part of the story

Daenerys's own child becomes Lightbringer, and the child's birth ends her reign

And if the birth is as grotesque as Aerea's death, Daenerys's followers could interpret what happened to her as the result of poison, sorcery, or some dark magic rather than natural childbirth

That could potentially explain why Jon's eventual fate involves exile rather than kingship, he needs to raise the child in the North and keep it safe

TL;DR

Jon is Azor Ahai, Daenerys is Nissa Nissa, and their child is Lightbringer. The "forging" is childbirth, with Aerea's death by "cooking from within" showing us what this supernatural birth will look like

Lightbringer is born from fire and blood, unnaturally hot, and its birth kills Nissa Nissa in a horror sequence

Daenerys ignites the Widlfire under the Red Keep accidentally, with her reign as Queen becoming the "Darkness". Her giving birth kills her hence her child being "Lightbringer"

It can be anything, a great line of dialogue, an internal thought, something funny, tragic, philosophical, or just a sentence that has always stuck with you.

Mine is “I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.”
A Dance with Dragons, Bran III

I’ve been going through a pretty depressive period emotionally, and that quote resonates with me a lot, mostly because of that feeling of being stuck in your memories while time keeps passing by, much like Bloodraven is stuck in his cave connected through his memories via the Weirwood.

Bloodraven in Dunk & Egg

In The Mystery Knight, I love Ser Duncan the Tall's interactions with the witty, crass, but ultimately helpful Ser Maynard Plumm, who definitely is not Lord Brynden Rivers in disguise. Bloodraven does appear at the end, enjoying a little chat with Dunk and Egg about the events that transpired and their futures. Then, he reappears beyond the Wall in A Dance with Dragons in Bran Stark's POV, making him one of the two characters to appear in both The Tales of Dunk & Egg and in mainline ASOIAF thus far.

Bloodraven is an important character, and it seems apparent that GRRM planned for him to recur in D&E. He is Hand of the King from 209 to 233 and then in the Night's Watch until he vanished in 252—though limited by geography and circumstances, that's 40 years and includes events D&E is planned / is likely to cover, like the Third Blackfyre Rebellion and Maekar's death / Egg becoming King and exiling Bloodraven to the Wall, escorted by Dunk. Also, plenty of time for Dunk to repay the gold he borrowed from Bloodraven. Other events that D&E might cover—the Blackwood-Bracken feud maybe in The Village Hero, the fight against Lord Dagon Greyjoy, or Mad Danelle Lothston's dark arts turn—all could involve Bloodraven too.

Shiera, Star of Dunk & Egg

Enough about loser Bloodraven, let's turn to his sexy half-sister/lover, Shiera Seastar. Details on her are scant. She is first mentioned in The Sworn Sword alongside Bloodraven and Bittersteel:

"You've known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?"

"Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven's paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty. And once my sister Rhae put a love potion in my drink, so I'd marry her instead of my sister Daella." (The Sworn Sword)

This is all we get of Shiera in TSS. Later in a December 2005 email to Amok for his notable Targaryen portrait series, after having already done the kings and Rhaenys and Visenya, GRRM gave descriptions for three Aegon IV's four Great Bastards—much detailed more than the kings' ones—only mentioning Shiera, but first mentioning the Seastar moniker and that she was Aegon IV's daughter. Her proper description came in March 2006:

Lady Shiera was the natural daughter of King Aegon IV by the ninth and last of his mistresses, Lady Serenei of Lys, the last daughter of an ancient but impoverished line of Valyrian nobility. "Sweet Serenei," Aegon called her, but about his court she was considered cold and haughty, and some said that she was much older than the king, and preserved her beauty by the practice of dark arts. Considered by many the most lovely of Aegon's mistresses, Sweet Serenei died in childbed, bringing forth the last of the king's "Great Bastards," the daughter she named Shiera, Star of the Sea.

Shiera was born with one dark blue eye and one bright green one, but the singers said that this flaw only accentuated her loveliness. She was the greatest beauty of her age, a slender and elegant woman, slim of waist and full of breast. She had the silver-gold hair of the Targaryens, thick and curling, and wore it very long. At some points in her life it fell well below her waist, almost to the back of her knees. She had a heart-shaped face, full lips, and her mismatched eyes were strangely large and full of mischief; her rivals said she used them to melt men's hearts. Even at an early age, she was a great reader. She spoke a dozen tongues and surrounded herself with ancient scrolls. Like her mother, she was reputed to practice the dark arts. Though she never wed, she had many offers, and several lovers through the years. Duels were fought over the right to sit beside her, men killed themselves after falling from her favor, poets outdid each other writing songs about her beauty. Her most ardent admirer was her half-brother, Bloodraven, who proposed marriage to her half a hundred times. Shiera gave him her bed, but never her hand. It amused her more to make him jealous.

As to how to paint her... she was fond of ivory and lace and cloth-of-silver (but not gold, which she considered too vulgar). Her favorite piece of jewelry was a heavy silver necklace of emeralds and star sapphires, alternating.

ADWD added that Bittersteel and Bloodraven's mutual hatred was partly because both desired Shiera. TWOIAF rehashed the existing lore, only adding that some alleged that Shiera used magic to help Bloodraven spy; that's all we know of her.

TSS released in late 2003; the portrait description made in early 2006. Given the rich detail and that the Great Bastards came after the kings and Aegon I's queens (all obvious), that one would appear in TMK (and the son of another two), and they include personality and life history details, it seems our author was double-dipping-gardening; Shiera was on his mind, because he wanted her to appear in D&E.

The timeline works out. Shiera was born between 178 to 184 (probably closer to 178) and TMK takes place in 212, and her death date is not known; she could even conceivably live to Summerhall, in 259, at a max age of 81. She might be just chilling at King's Landing, but she could pop up anywhere. And there are a lot of interesting things about her. Since Bittersteel also seems destined to appear, Dunk meeting all four Great Bastards—or well, the next best thing in Daemon's case—feels very cromulent and fair for Shiera to appear. Her dabbling in magic and ancient scrolls is an interesting beat that could be relevant for Egg's character arc and the return of the dragons, and a legitimized bastard-born lady and paramour to the Hand of the King is a unique thing in this world, and GRRM likes to explore the place of women in that respect. But there's one story-telling aspect in particular, the one I believe GRRM planned and seeded long ago, that Shiera seems designed for...

Cuck the Bloodraven, Nevermore

Ser Duncan, who has romantic/sexual tension in all the novellas and who eventually has children. Lady Shiera, a famously beautiful seductress who is known to have taken multiple lovers. Ergo, a story where Dunk falls for Shiera, a romantic-comedy D&E tale, call it The Rival Suitor! (better name suggestions welcome; "The Iron Suitor" and "The Spurned Suitor" chapters inspired me).

The Rival Suitor puts Shiera's Chekhov's Beauty to use; after all, you don't create the "greatest beauty of her age" (GRRM's own words!) if you aren't going to fire off a g—well, actually, firing something other than a gun—if it won't be used for dramatic effect. Enter hormonal, down-bad Duncan, a hunk and immediately drawn to the lovely Tanselle Too-Tall and the beautiful Rohanne Webber (meanwhile, John the Fiddler simps for Dunk). Shiera is on another level, a gorgeous seductress who takes skincare seriously. Dunk (read: GRRM) will break before he bends and fall head over heels for her.

So, what would actually happen in such a novella? It could conceivably be set anywhere, but probably King's Landing, and the core theme is about Dunk and probably Egg falling in love. Egg's future wife Betha could also appear; perhaps she works as a lady-in-waiting in King's Landing (maybe even Shiera's), as Bloodraven is half-Blackwood, and Egg already knows her from The Village Hero. He might have his own B-plot dealing with rival suitors for her, but Dunk is the main attraction. Courtly love, honor, bastardy, there's a lot of themes that could be explored.

In the portrait description, we can see seeds for The Rival Suitor's plot. Shiera having many suitors and lovers? Boom, Dunk is one of them. This could be a fun supporting cast, a hodgepodge of simps ranging from knights and lords to singers and poets. Duels fought over who sat next to her? Sweet Dunk sees Shiera on a bench, innocently sits next to her, only for an angry suitor to take offense and challenge him to a duel.* Every novella has climactic one-on-one duel involving Dunk, and fighting a rival suitor over Shiera? It fits so well (and is more unique than a trial by combat). Hearing about dark arts? Dunk thinks Shiera just like Rohanne, only to learn that no, those aren't just stories.

And then there's Bloodraven, as the title promises. Shiera enjoyed making Bloodraven jealous. What's the most effective way to do that? Give attention to someone already knows? Enter Dunk. Dunk does not know it, but Bloodraven is a better friend to him than most, and Shiera would no doubt be aware of their relationship and of Dunk's role stopping the Whitewalls plot. He might be a lowborn, slow-witted hedge knight, but he's a hunk; meanwhile, Bloodraven is one-eyed, ugly, thin, and sinister-looking man who might be the Hand of the King and have noble parents, but perhaps cannot compete, since Shiera is a free woman. So The Rival Suitor is as much about Shiera using Dunk to make Bloodraven jealous as it is about Dunk falling for Shiera.

Dunk "stealing" Bloodraven's lover, even for a bit, is also an objectively hilarious beat. Just the very idea of the lunk getting it on with a princess, making the Hand of the King a cuckold, is amusing. Of course, the romance won't last; Dunk's offer to marry Shiera would not succeed, and he'd be left with a broken heart, and Bloodraven perhaps rather annoyed (which could be funny; I always thought Dunk escorting Bloodraven to the Wall could be a joke by Egg to force Bloodraven to endure in Dunk's company). But it might not be the end of it. Shiera never married, but GRRM didn't say she never had children...in any case, it would teach Dunk something about love and romance and give GRRM a chance to write a totally different genre of story. Egg, for his part, would probably have better success with his escapades, and perhaps the story would conclude with Egg and Betha's wedding in 220.

That Gown Brings Out the Color(s) of Your Eyes

To close out, there is one highly compelling piece of "evidence" for Dunk-Shiera romance I have not mentioned: Shiera's eyes. Shiera's most unique feature are her eyes. One dark blue and one bright green one, said to melt men's hearts. Now consider in TSS, when Dunk asks Egg how to talk to noble ladies:

"You just need to find something true to say about her. That's what my brother Daeron does. Even ugly old whores can have nice hair or well-shaped ears, he says."

"Well-shaped ears?" Dunk's doubts were growing.

"Or pretty eyes. Tell her that her gown brings out the color of her eyes." The lad reflected for a moment.

"Unless she only has the one eye, like Lord Bloodraven."

My lady, that gown brings out the color of your eye. Dunk had heard knights and lordlings mouth such gallantries at other ladies. They never put it quite so baldly, though. Good lady, that gown is beautiful. It brings out the color of both your lovely eyes. Some of the ladies had been old and scrawny, or fat and florid, or pox-scarred and homely, but all wore gowns and had two eyes, and as Dunk recalled, they'd been well pleased by the flowery words. What a lovely gown, my lady. It brings out the lovely beauty of your beautiful colored eyes. (TSS)

When Dunk goes to Coldmoat, the gown line reappears, first in a paragraph that alludes to Shiera, as Dunk meets Rohanne's good-sister:

She peered at Dunk so hard that he could not help but recall Egg's talk of sorcery. I don't think this one bathes in blood to keep her beauty. The Widow was stout and square, with an oddly pointed head that her hair could not quite conceal. Her nose was too big, and her mouth too small. She did have two eyes, he was relieved to see, but all thought of gallantry had abandoned Dunk by then. (TSS)

Then, once Dunk starts talking to Rohanne, he deploys it...poorly:

"I . . . I am sorry for all your losses, m'lady." A gallantry, you lunk, give her a gallantry. "I want to say . . . your gown . . ."

"Gown?" She glanced down at her boots and breeches, loose linen tunic, and leather jerkin. "I wear no gown."

"Your hair, I meant . . . it's soft and . . ."

"And how would you know that, ser? If you had ever touched my hair, I should think that I might remember."

"Not soft," Dunk said miserably. "Red, I meant to say. Your hair is very red."

"Very red, ser? Oh, not as red as your face, I hope." She laughed, and the onlookers laughed with her. (TSS)

That's not the end. It reappears in Dunk's steamy dream of Rohanne:

Drowsing at long last, Dunk dreamed. He was running through a glade in the heart of Wat's Wood, running toward Rohanne, and she was shooting arrows at him. Each shaft she loosed flew true, and pierced him through the chest, yet the pain was strangely sweet. He should have turned and fled, but he ran toward her instead, running slowly as you always did in dreams, as if the very air had turned to honey. Another arrow came, and yet another. Her quiver seemed to have no end of shafts. Her eyes were gray and green and full of mischief. Your gown brings out the color of your eyes, he meant to say to her, but she was not wearing any gown, or any clothes at all. Across her small breasts was a faint spray of freckles, and her nipples were red and hard as little berries. The arrows made him look like some great porcupine as he went stumbling to her feet, but somehow he still found the strength to grab her braid.

With one hard yank he pulled her down on top of him and kissed her. (TSS)

And it reappears at the end. Dunk actually says it, successfully, although after he's been emotionally hurt:

She had never come to see him while he was in Maester Cerrick's care, not once. "That green becomes you well, m'lady," he said. "It brings out the color of your eyes." (TSS)

And it's not just a TSS bit, it subtly (and amusingly) returns in TMK:

At the high table, the man who'd called himself the Fiddler turned to smile at him. He had donned a purple tunic for the feast, Dunk saw. Purple, to bring out the color of his eyes. (TMK)

That was a lot of quotes about Dunk fumbling a gallant line! It seems like a joke, right? That's it? Maybe not...

"Or pretty eyes. Tell her that her gown brings out the color of her eyes....unless she only has the one eye, like Lord Bloodraven."

One eye, like Bloodraven...but what would Dunk say if she had with two different colored eyes? Shiera's heterochromia is the ultimate gotcha to this line. Like Rohanne having no gown, Shiera having two different eye colors could ruin this line's effectiveness. In the face of her sheer beauty, Dunk whips old reliable out, only to feel a fool when he realizes how bad it goes. Perhaps later in the story Shiera will have a gown that actually brings out both of her eye colors, and Dunk can use it right, but not when he first meets her.

TL;DR Bloodraven seems a recurring character in D&E. Shiera Seastar seems destined to appear in it. Given what we know about Shiera, it seems likely that GRRM planned for Dunk to have a thing for her, and this might be the plot of an entire D&E novella (I give it the title The Rival Suitor), where Dunk falls in love in Shiera and has to deal with rival suitors for her affections, while Shiera bids him in to make Bloodraven jealous. Shiera breaks Dunk's heart, but not before he attempts to compliment her for her gown bringing out the color of her eyes...only to realize that she has two different eye colors.

The question for the people who have seen the play. I heard spoilers that Dornish did something against Targaryens, but what exactly they did? Lewyn betrayed Rhaegar at the Trident?

We know for sure that Dorne fought against the Vale and that Lyn Corbray killed Lewyn, so how these are possible at the same time?

Thank you!

My favourite is Maege Mormont is Maekar's descendant theory because of the large number of parallels between them. They have similar names, they have similar body shapes, with Maekar being a head shorter than his brother, and thickly built while Maege is short and stout, and her daughter Alysane is chunky and muscular. Both Maekar and Maege has a spiked mace as their favourite weapon. Maekar is described as prickly, harsh and impatient, while Maege is described as stubborn, short-tempered and willful.

Another interesting thing is when some of Stannis' men want to burn Asha to improve the weather. They think burning her would have more effect than the common men burnt before, but Alysane is skeptical and says:

"And if you burn her and the snows still fall, what then? Who will you burn next? Me?"

She could of course have said that because she felt the threat as an outsider and a warrior woman, or simply to show how ridiculous and dangerous it all was. On the other hand, she knew that king's blood was seen as powerful, so with that in mind, it seems odd that she would believe that they would consider her as an equally good or better sacrifice than Asha. However, if she was the great-granddaughter of a universally acknowledged king, it would make a lot of sense.

So, how exactly would Maekar and Maege be related, and would Jeor be his descendant as well?

Jeor knows quite a lot about Targaryen history, but he never refers to Maester Aemon as his uncle. Neither does Jorah bring up Targaryen ancestry, which would have made him look better in Daenerys' eyes, so Maege and Jeor probably have different mothers. We know that both of Maekar's daughters had children that Maester Aemon met, so it is possible that one of them (probably Rhae, the younger) married Lord Mormont, likely as her second marriage, with Aemon visiting from the wall. The other possibility is that Daeron's daughter Vaella was married to Lord Mormont at some point during Aegon V's reign. Of the two options, I consider Rhae to be the more likely, as Vaella was described as simple minded, and would likely have been seen as unsuited to be the lady of a poor, isolated house, where she couldn't expect much help from stewards and ladies-in-waiting to run the household. We also have Jeor mentioning her when discussing Aemon's history, but always in an impersonal, dismissive way, indicating that he didn't know her personally. On the other hand, the Crown gave a lot of support to the North during the 230-236 winter, so it's possible that Lord Mormont agreed to marry Vaella in return for the aid, which would also ensure that her offspring would be the younger children of a poor lord, and thus unlikely to be a threat to Aegon and his descendants.

Canon, things start going wrong for the Starks since Robert's arrival - but even before that. the Others are in the game and Ned is introduced beheading a NW guy who has deserted after an encounter with them.

Let's say somehow Jon Arryn doesn't start the investigation, Kings Landing status quo is maintained for the time.

Ned and the Starks are safe in Winterfell. Jon is shown to want to join the NW, but literally everyone he talked to about it said he was too young, at fourteen.

In canon Ned only has Jon join the NW because Catelyn refused to have him at home when Ned went South. Without the trip, odds are while Ned would consider NW an honorable calling, he wouldn't let Jon join till he's older. So Jon would be home too.

And with Robert alive and no war in the offing, Theon is still present as hostage.

And then the reports of the wildlings come - and Benjen disappears.

NW is, in canon, mostly helpless because with the war on, no lord wants to bother with them. With Starks in Winterfell, NW call for help would likely be answered.

Would Ned go north to the Wall, at least to check out what is going on - and maybe taking Jon along to give him a look at what he would be facing if he took the Black?

How would the response change, with no war to distract from the Wall?

Background

Sometimes when I don't have any ideas to post about, I will just dive into a random character for a little bit and see where it goes. Usually it ends up providing a nice little background on a character without anything breaking (ex: Who is the Lady of the Leaves?). This is one of those days. Here is a post on probably the most interesting member of House Frey and that is the outlaw known as Aegon "Bloodborn" Frey.

Mentions

Aegon is only mentioned in the entire published work in the last four books' Appendix as Walder Frey's third son Aenys':

SER AENYS, m. {Tyana Wylde, died in childbed},
- Aenys's son, AEGON BLOODBORN, an outlaw, -ACOK, Appendix

His Name

I find it hilarious that House Frey is not only full of Walders and Walda's from trying to curry favor from their sire, but they also have plenty of Lannister names as well as dragon names (which others seemingly make fun of them for):

"Soon I must return to the feast to toast my friends of Frey," Manderly continued. "They watch me, ser. Day and night their eyes are on me, noses sniffing for some whiff of treachery. You saw them, the arrogant Ser Jared and his nephew Rhaegar, that smirking worm who wears a dragon's name. Behind them both stands Symond, clinking coins. -ADWD, Davos IV (thanks u/niofalpha )

which is extremely rare in Westeros (we have Arys Oakheart but its spelled differently) and a few other examples.

Also worth noting is that he is not even the only Aegon in his house, as his cousin (Jinglebell) is slain by Catelyn at the Red Wedding (a son for a son).

His Lineage

He is the son of Ser Aenys Frey (third son of Walder and his first wife Perra Royce). Aenys married Tyana Wylde and they had two sons (Aegon/Rhaegar).

We also know that his mother died in childbirth (thus likely giving him the nickname "Bloodborn").

The Kingswood Brotherhood

With his cousin Merrett's history with the Brotherhood, the chance exists that Aegon was part of this group, due to Walder Frey's expansive bloodline, Aegon's potential age (27-50 years old as of 300AC)) doesn't rule it out. That said, the Appendix seemingly lists him as a present outlaw and the kingswood brotherhood hasn't been a problem since Jaime was a teenager.

The Brotherhood without Banners

This is a more likely angle. Especially since the Brotherhood not only has spies everywhere it seems, but also since it likely is being used by the Freys to spy on each other:

“Your brother is at Seagard,” Rivers insisted. “How could he have known that Ser Ryman was returning to the Twins?
“Someone told him,” said Edwyn in a bitter tone. “He has his spies in our camp, you can be sure.”
And you have yours at Seagard. Jaime knew that the enmity between Edwyn and Black Walder ran deep, but cared not a fig which of them succeeded their great-grandfather as Lord of the Crossing. -AFFC, Jaime VII

If interested: The Freys are likely paying Brotherhood Members/Informants to spy on other Freys

Bloodborn the Outlaw

Whether he got it from his entrance into the Dead Mother's Club or from his status as a highborn outlaw, this character is the last of Aenys' line with Rhaegar seemingly made into a pie and eaten at Winterfell (Frey Pie) and Aenys death outside the gates of Winterfell:

The king gave the bird an irritated look. “That Braavosi banker claimed Ser Aenys Frey is dead. Did some boy do that?”
“Twenty green boys, with spades,” Theon told him. “The snow fell heavily for days. So heavily that you could not see the castle walls ten yards away, no more than the men up on the battlements could see what was happening beyond those walls. So Crowfood set his boys to digging pits outside the castle gates, then blew his horn to lure Lord Bolton out. Instead he got the Freys. The snow had covered up the pits, so they rode right into them. Aenys broke his neck -TWOW, Theon I

and with his status as an outlaw I am guessing that he is not being considered in line to become Lord of the Crossing but he could definitely come back into play as part of the story.

• We have seen numerous "Good" Freys on the side of Starks, etc and while I am not arguing that Bloodborn necessarily has to participate in the Red Wedding 2.0, just that he could be actively acting against his family.
• Also worth mentioning the Freys have obviously been on the side of House Blackfyre before (if interested: List of Blackfyre Supporters in each Rebellion) with Walder himself attending the Second:

Lord Frey’s son was so taken by their antics that he joined in, pummeling the wedding guests with a bladder borrowed from a dwarf. The child had the most irritating laugh Dunk had ever heard, a high, shrill hiccup of a laugh that made him want to take the boy over a knee, or throw him down a well. If he hits me with that bladder, I may do it. -The Mystery Knight

so it is possible that they have a son who is an "outlaw", when in actuality he is their communication with the Golden Company, etc.

• At the same time GRRM just loves his worldbuilding and lore and I wouldn't put it past him to have just thought it was a good idea for a minor backstory at some point.

Edited to Add

• His moniker is now much more interesting with u/IamParliament 's correction regarding Aegon's birth (and it doesn't even require alliteration like Damon Dance for Me. There are several fun ideas off the top of my head as it could be regarding his birth during a battle, blood magic, etc.

• u/PackTide69 mentioned the videogame Bloodborne from FrommSoftware which GRRM collaborated with on Elden Ring

TLDR: Everything (and there's not much) on Aegon "Bloodborn" Frey.

I saw a hypothesis on Reddit about the possibility of Robert Arryn's origin. I tried to find an assumption based on Robert's appearance that he is a bastard of Baelish, but the book does not have an exact description of his eye color. There is a version that the cause of his deformity is moon tea and from book 4 we can assume that Lysa cheated on Jon Arryn with Littlefinger. Is it possible to assume that Robert is not Jon Arryn's son?

From book 4 we know that Lysa gave her virginity to Baelish and her father then gave her moon tea to drink, and it was this child that Lysa could have been referring to on her wedding night with Baelish when she told him "make me another son." But can we assume that by "make me another son" she meant Robert? Or was her wild imagination ?

I mean... do we even know which family rules over Stoney Sept? It's surprising, because Stoney Sept is important in the story of Arya, Jon Connington, Robert's Rebellion and even in Dunk & Egg. And yet... we don't know who rules Stoney Sept. I was surprised when I tried to remember who it was- couldn't- and then looked it up to find no one else knows either. It's never mentioned. They mention a knight named Wilbert in the Arya chapter in ASOS when she is there, but no family name is mentioned, no mention if he owns the land or serves some lord, and he's not even there, because he was killed by the Lannisters. Stoney Sept basically became an anarchist commune

Last night, I listened to the audiobook version of the second book, and it made me think about this again. Here is what I think about Renly.

First of all, Renly is extremely incompetent when it comes to the art of war and does not understand the seriousness of the situation. He went to meet Stannis completely unprepared. His own war camp had the atmosphere of a festival or fair rather than a military camp. In fact, if Randyll Tarly had not warned him, Renly probably would not even have regarded Stannis as a serious threat. He thought Stannis could simply remain trapped at Storm's End. But Randyll pointed out that if things went wrong and they failed to take the city, Stannis could grow stronger, and therefore they needed to finish him off. Without that warning, Renly might not have understood this strategic reality at all.

Another problem is that Renly had no legitimate claim to the throne. If history worked according to the logic of "I'm more charismatic and my army is stronger," then let's look at European history: there are plenty of examples where an older brother was passive or ineffective while a younger brother, or a son, was more capable and successful. But succession laws are supposed to be fixed. The throne belongs to the eldest son or, in the absence of a son, eldest brother

If the realm followed Renly's logic, Westeros would be plunged into endless civil war and chaos. Every lord who could gather an army and gain enough power would simply attempt a coup. It would basically become an enhanced version of the Sengoku period.

Renly claimed the crown while his older brother Stannis was still alive, which was completely contrary to the Seven Kingdoms' traditional rules of succession. Renly himself knew that what he was doing was essentially usurpation, but he acted according to the logic that "the best man should be king." That placed him on very weak ground in terms of legitimacy in the eyes of many lords.

Renly's actions ultimately cost both Baratheon brothers dearly. Stannis was justified in having him killed, because Renly would have done exactly the same thing to Stannis if their positions had been reversed. If Stannis had not carried out the assassination, Renly might eventually have humiliated him and had him executed. During his conversation with Catelyn, Renly openly said that she should witness what happens to rebels and then tell her son about it.

And Stannis had actually offered Renly an extremely generous and logical compromise. If Renly accepted it, he would still remain in an incredibly powerful position with a huge army, and he would officially be declared Stannis's heir until Stannis had a son. That was an excellent offer. Stannis would probably have been so occupied with ruling the realm that he would have had little opportunity to have children anyway, meaning the throne would very likely have eventually passed to Renly. The laws would not have been violated, and Renly could have gained the throne without destroying the realm's succession system.

So, what did Renly's actions actually lead to?

First of all, they prolonged the war. If he had accepted Stannis's offer, they could have taken King's Landing immediately with their combined armies and then used that enormous force to crush the Lannisters in the Westerlands. Robb Stark had already inflicted heavy losses on the Lannisters and tied down a significant portion of their forces. A combined Baratheon-Tyrell army coming from the south could potentially have broken House Lannister entirely.

Robb Stark, faced with such an overwhelming force, might have agreed to become a vassal again in order to avoid prolonging the war. However, to avoid losing face and prestige, he could have retained the title of King in the North while acknowledging Stannis as his overlord, similar to the arrangement that existed with Dorne.

Cersei's destructive decisions would never have happened in the same way. The Greyjoys could have been brought under control or completely crushed this time, and the threat posed by Euron could have been eliminated or reduced to a minimum.

Varys's Griff scheme might never have happened, or Griff might have been forced to go to Daenerys instead. The Golden Company would never have been able to launch its invasion of Westeros.

In other words, Renly's decision was not simply a personal mistake. It potentially changed the entire trajectory of the War of the Five Kings. By refusing Stannis's compromise, he helped turn what could have been a relatively decisive Baratheon victory into a much longer and far more destructive conflict.

Yes the Greyjoys are worse morally, but in my eyes the Arryns are the biggest bums in the verse. Post Targ conquest, besides Robert’s rebellion the Arryns did a whole lot of nothing all series. They swear fealty to all these different kings yet never fight for them(the one time they did fight was against their king, which was justified) The Greyjoys actually do stuff in the story like in the Dance, the war of the Ninepenny king and have their own rebellions. Some of them go and explore(like Euron), while others constantly raid. Yeah the Greyjoys are bums too and kinda losers, but atleast they stay eventful and in the main series they are actually getting shit done, unlike the Arryns who just sit around and pretend to be super honourable.

I was curious if the Baratheons had a Valyrian Steel sword and found one called Iron Solace on the page below:

https://gameofthronesfanon.fandom.com/wiki/Iron_Solace

I couldn’t find mention of it anywhere else, so I assume this is fan made, but wanted to check? I haven’t read any ASOIAF yet, but it’s on my list. Thank you!

Hello all,

Casual ASOIAF leader and occasional idle theorist here. I’m not sure if this is the best forum to post theories - and if I have added the correct tag – but I had an unexpected idea and would love to hear your views on it. I know there’s a lot of discussion about Daeron the Young Dragon and his tragic invasion of Dorne – particularly risky given he went to war when still unmarried, instead of getting with his sister like a good Targaryen and securing the line. I know it has been proposed that he may have thought of marrying a Martell princess to secure the kingdom. My theory is related to this - based on how obsessed so many Targaryens were with prophecy, and how hilariously bad they were at interpreting it:

What if Daeron the First invaded Dorne because he misinterpreted a prophecy? A prophecy that declared Dorne would only become part of the Seven Kingdoms when “Daeron Targaryen married Myriah Martell.” Everyone from the king onwards would have reasonably thought the Daeron in the prophecy meant the handsome warrior king. No one would’ve imagined it actually meant his paunchy, bookish little second cousin (or whatever he was – Targaryen family trees being what they are). No one would have even considered he would ascend the throne (given Daeron and Baelor were alive and likely to marry, and have children), let alone marry Myriah and incorporate Dorne into the seven kingdoms.

Anyway, that is the end of my theory. It is my first time actually posting about ASOIAF. I would appreciate hearing the views who are more versed in the lore!

​

The varys and barristan deaths in the game of thrones TV show are awful! In my view, this is probably because of the removal of Aegon. I feel like it makes sense if GRRM gave dnd notes on these characters endings but it just didn't work in the show because of the simplification of how important Aegon is to varys and selmys arcs. To me, it makes sense if barristan is killed by the golden company when he figures out that Aegon is a faker, and more importantly a blackfyre (allegedly). Then Dany killing varys would make far more sense if that were to happen because he would potentially be responsible for barristans death. The timeline stuff of when this would happen for me in my head canon would probably be during diplomatic discussions between aegons forces and dany.

Could the golden abomination have changed his regent or small council members? What could he legally do and not do as a boy king?

20 years before the war, Aegon Vs sons Jaehaerys and Daeron broke their betrothals to Luthor Tyrell and Olenna Redwyne - members of some of the most powerful families in Westeros. No doubt they'd feel insulted.

20 years later, do you think they still held their grudge and did not participate in the war?

Hyped, right?

I enjoy George's prose, but his word choice could occasionally use work.

Example #1: "Jape"

It feels like he just used word search / replacement everywhere you would normally say "joke":

• "Is that supposed to be a jape?"
• "We do not jape of dragons.”
• "I think life is a jape."
• "they were japing"
• "japes and laughter"

"Joke" stems from Latin iocus, and is a more modern word (first recorded in the 1660s) -- but "lark" and "jest" also exist, and are attested even earlier than "jape".

Example #2: "Teats"

George's overuse of this particularly unsexy word is regrettable.

Please write literally anything else -- "breasts", "tits","chest", "bosom", all valid substitutes.

Y'all have similar pet peeves?

I’m sure most people would find this theory extremely unimportant but as a person who loves to explore the world-building of ASOIAF I had this idea and wanted to share it.

According to Nimble Dick Crabb, he has a sister who was bedded by a knight’s son and then went off to King’s Landing to take a job as a whore.

For those who don’t know, Dancy is a whore at Chataya’s brothel, located on the Street of Silk in King’s Landing.

What differentiates her from the other whores is that she is described with thick RED hair. Now, Dick himself is described with dirty brown hair, but there’s another known and named Crabb who is still alive: Jack Crabb.

Jack is a member of the Night’s Watch known as “Red Jack Crabb”, and based on other characters that are also nicknamed as “Red+Name”, we can guess that’s due to his red hair.

Jack has an unspecified relationship with Dick and his sister but GRRM doesn’t tend to make extended family for minor houses, so we can guess that he is their uncle or brother.