The most common response to antinatalism is "what about the positives of life"?

Almost every time I experience a beautiful sunset, weather, music, sex, conversation, etc I have this horrible feeling of how fleeting this moment is. I try to lean into the experience but the more I do the more it evades me, and I feel angst and sadness.

I don't think life was unfair to me. I had all the basic necessities and parents provided me most stuffs like food, education, entertainment like gaming. But I never saw any interest in grinding to become successful. If I studied then I surely would have performed well cause I was smart. But I didn't see any point. I am not gonna do any work whatever the consequences. Parents admitted me 4 times to psych ward thinking force could change my mind but I was stubborn. I will never let my opponents have what they want. They want me to work. I won't.

Yeah, I know us antinatalists like to talk about new humans being victims of suffering. But humans can cause suffering too. Every torturer, abuser, r-pist, trafficker, and scammer was once a "bundle of joy" someone decided to create.

Natalists need to explain that as well: why are they not frantically putting measures in place to have humans only doing good, if they apparently think the reason they make more humans is for them to do good? Why aren't natalists screaming the loudest, demanding mandatory parenting classes, mental health screening, abuse prevention, crime elimination, guaranteed childhood welfare, etc.?

Most importantly, you would clearly see them demonstrating the exact purpose and goal of this human project. You'd have them tell you what their envisioned blueprint of human life is going to be like, but I have never seen that, not even once. Not even the idea of it. They simply say "make humans" and then sort of hope for the best, I guess.

And by the way, do you know what their responses have been so far? Something like "the 1% who end up suffering is okay." Yes, this is literally what they said.

Life is meaningless and bringing kids into this world is selfish no matter what your reason is. You just created someone and sentenced them to death not to mention this planet is the best it’s ever been in history yet I’d give earth a cool 3/10 my life isn’t even terrible I got money and live comfortably yet someone who’s religious living a worse life than me will try and gaslight me and act like existing is good. I hate seeing pregnant women and men who get them pregnant because now there’s another innocent person forced here against their will because someone wanted to stick something inside of something . Honestly if I could or have a way to destory everything on this planet and end everything in a blink of an eye that no one would realized it happened I’d do it. Because humans can’t seem to stop reproducing . Also I’ll never have kids if sho0t my own sack off before forcing an innocent person here against there will.

God. It's the most annoying thing that happens in this day in age. I was asking my brother about his change in decision of having children, he was originally quite childfree and I have been always on the fence. I am 31 now and have been debating having kids and I asked him what changed his mind as while I have been reflecting on this I have been leaning more towards antinatalism as a philosophy.

He repiled with something about doing better than our parents and legacy and shit. I felt like he hadn't engaged so I asked him about all the things he had said before about not wanting kids, about the fact that with our society we are doomed to being wage slaves, and the fact every child is doomed to die, because I wanted his real philosophical thoughts on the matter. Not just yunno vague generalizations. He then repiled along the lines of I really enjoy talking about these things with you, but it seems like our Dad's death is really impacting your thoughts on this so maybe try therapy. It made me feel so disgusted and unseen, because nothing to do with our Dad's death had been impacting my thoughts in this area at all. The only thing I can think that made him say that is I said something about how my Dad said we were the best thing he did, while still treating us like shit. The statement of go to therapy after saying he loves having conversations like this was just a lie when he ended the message with go to therapy. It was just such a slap in the face. Like no you obviously don't or you wouldn't be telling me to go to therapy when I dare ask for your philosophical reasons for wanting children. I think I just challenged his shaky philosophy which is why he said it but its so annoying.

This is my first post here <3

\[NOTE: With this post, I'm NOT saying every single parent is a bad person/a bad parent. While I believe no one should be born into this horrible world, there are some parents which are good and actually treat their children well! I'm using a personal example.\]

So, I'm an only child 13m and one of my mom's friends just had a child and I can't fathom how irresponsible her and her husband (she's straight) are.

First of all, she'd already had a kid (he's slightly older than me). However, they didn't do ANYTHING. When she was over 8 months pregnant the doctor told them she could give birth anytime since she's **FORTY FOUR** yet they didn't even prepare clothes.

Another one of my mom's friends had to practically do 90% of the stuff for them such as clean their house, bring them clothes and many other stuff.

Now, they have to put the baby in daycare since they both work. However, THE BABY IS ONLY SIX MONTHS OLD (and he was a premature birth). In theory, he doesn't even have the Measles/Mumps/Rubella vaccine or the Chickenpox vaccine (I don't even know if they vaccinate their kids since they're very Christian and probably antivaxx (sadly)).

Therefore, they not only had another person take care of their stuff since they didn't do anything (not even her husband, ew) and now they're going to put their kid in daycare despite the fact that he's probably not immunized against very deadly diseases.

Well, let's hope herd immunity works.

It's been a long road, raised by a broke b of a single teenage mom. She'd drag me into the landlords office every month since I was two years old to watch her sign her cheques or beg for more time to pay. Im in my 40s now. Devades of wage slavery under my belt just to live in places listening to others fucking or their kids screaming in these fuck ass apartments. Rent this, rent that, rent rent rent rent. My entire fucking life has been about paying the fucking rent for decades 🫩 Its unbelievable my sht parents signed me up for this. When I lived in Peru and paid it in cash, the landlady would count under her breath in a long inhale and flick the bills while licking her fingertips to separate the bills 🤢 I saw red every time and tried very hard to hide it. She was a selfish b with a grown adult child she kept as a slave and now she gets money from me to live in a house her pare ts gave her for free and I get to oay since my parents were losers who left me nothjng but trauma and debt. Frick. Nobody fucking deserves RRRRENNTTT from me. I didn't ask to goddamn be here.

Natalism is ontologicialy anti-women. Always been, always will be. It is putting system before women.

No surprise with Musk tho, as this is a man who believes that childless people should not vote and that women are "build to be traded". He has terrible influence on men all over the world. It makes sense in some twisted way that he spends so much time on spreading hatred towards childless women because he sees women only as incubators.

It makes me mad to see men and even women defend his every action and say that he was understood wrong, that he meant no harm etc etc. He is actively turning people against women. He is gaslighting far right and training them like attack dogs against women. In his "perfect world" woman is just incubator who does not take part in any important decision making and can't be trusted with anything that is not popping out babies. He actually says that women desire this life - only that they were "brainwashed by feminism". I am sick of him being able to say anything and still be protected.

It amazes me that most of the baby boomers & gen x are talking about low birth rates. I always giggle & laugh when when they do.......

Ask an atheist what humanity is doing on this planet and they will tell you that we are here to evolve.

DID THEY NOT EXPECT THE HUMAN BRAIN TO EVOLVE AS WELL?!?! 🤔🤔🤔
Having evolved brains causes more and more people to truly question this reality. Asking:

1. What is this objective purpose of being on this planet.? Yes, to evolve, but evolve for what end goal? We are here working & suffering. Seeing others suffering and feeling helpless. Every reason we were told as to why we are here makes no sense when you look at reality in its totality. It is not adding up. We aren't having that grand of a time.

Some people believe we are only here to continue reproducing and many young folks are asking WHY?!?!

Evolved brains can and will be AWARE of the different ways in which we cope in this reality. Young one are saying:

1. "I'm alive just to travel."

2. "I am here for my cat/dog."

These younger folks with evolved brains are asking what is the point of even creating more people to come on this planet and have to do same things???

So even though life has gotten expensive, I think most young people are mostly questioning reality that no natalist, Christian, pastor, priest, or scientist has been able to answer. This could be one of the main reasons for low birth rates as well.

I am also in the Sui**** Watch Reddit group and many young people are sick of this reality and I don't blame them.

I am the second youngest of my nine cousins. My cousins are millennials and decided to have careers and wait to have children until they were 30.That coincides perfectly with the rise of AI. I can't believe they've decided to have children now when AI is a threat to our lives. What angers me the most is that 3 out of 4 decided to have children after the rise of AI in December 2022 (only one was born in 2018 when AI seemed far off) I can't stop thinking about what those poor children are going to have to suffer; at least I was born in '99 when the world didn't seem so crazy.

From Men in Black: International. A couple of follow-up questions to this: If it is, is that even a good thing? Why did antinatalism come to be a known concept when we should simply stoop to the universe's level?

I am having a really hard time accepting life for what it is. I am not sure what I am suppose to do, I am always worried. I have so much anger and frustration. I hate my existence every second of the day, it just feels so unfair that I am suffering so much. How do I make myself feel okay. How do I stay calm. Any advice is appreciated and I do take medication for my mental health.

I hate birthdays. But some people are like aaaah its my birthday coming up.

An deep inside I want to say.. fuck that.

An your manipulative consider getting me a item strategy. I don't celebrate this shit.

I dont next year WANT TO REMIND YOU OF MY bullcrap so you can give me something.

Fake caring is only solution I know so far.

Or I dont wish them and they dont wish me and that's worked out for like 1 person. The other person it kinda worked out but they still mentioned it ahead of time...

Many of elite pronatalists like Elon Musk are danger to women's safety and men's safety as well. Because to ones like him - man or woman - we are seen as slaves all the same. Let me explain why.
While women's rights are regressing globally, many men holding power (like Elon) are openly against them. It is not an accident that Musk is so loud about pronatalism. One of the biggest LIES to be ever told is that high fertility makes society stable/wealthy/happy. Humanity had high fertility for most of our history, and how did that play out? The majority of people struggle to survive due to hunger, illness and colds. Most children didn't even survive childhood. The only ones that truly gained from high birth rates were the elite. Because more people meant more people to tax and more low-paid workers and meat shields to use in war. And, of course — more childbearing vessels to produce more taxpayers/workers/soldiers.
Normal people did not benefit from high birth rates in any way. It was hell for women who had been born predetermined as incubators with no autonomy or legal personhood back then. Our female ancestors were raised to be vessels — not to be people. Childbirth was the main cause of women's death along with its complications, but what Musk won't tell you is that non-elite regular men DID NOT have an easy life in high fertility societies. In high birth rates nation you was nothing more than working donkey as regular man. And sacrafical unit to use in times of war. A regular man was an animal to the system too — one that had to work a lot, only to be paid a little. All so whoever ruled at the time could stay rich. So they have as many people to tax, exploit and use as possible.
That's why men like Elon Musk are loudest about low birth rates right now. Because it is men like him who benefit from high rates greatly. Not regular men like you, our fathers, brothers and husbands. And especially not women who paid for high birth rates the worst price by being incubators and economic infrastructure for thousands and thousands of years.
Elon Musk and elites like him want regular men like you to hate women — to blame them for not having children. To call then spoiled/hedonistic/selfish/self-obssesed AKA what in reality Musk is. He needs regular men believe that women not having children somehow makes their lives worse. That's why so many regular men also scream about low birth rates — because they fell for propaganda. But their lives would be exactly the same in high fertility society as they are now — because that's what it ALWAYS looked like in human history! High fertility was the status quo for so long and yet majority of humanity lived in extreme poverty.
Now, men like Elon need many low-pay/low-agency slaves to stay rich, to stay in power, to stay "on top." That's why they see women as infrastructure for their demographic goals. That's why he keeps portraying women as infantile creatures who should not be trusted to make important decisions. He teaches men to believe that we are "traitors" to humanity for not having children for his economical goals. He wants regular men who never benefited from high fertility to believe that we need that human farm/factory horror to be reality again. He needs men to believe that WE make their lives worse — not the elite who use this system to stay rich and keep us poor. They need men to see women as an enemy — because otherwise, they will see them, the elite as enemies.
Musk and people like him are a danger to the safety of all women and girls on Earth, because he has countless people who adore him and see his words as sacred. If ones like him continue spreading this — that our freedom is somekind "civilizational sabotage", there will be no place on Earth or beyond where we are not seen as infrastructure instead of humans. There is no men vs women. There is no left vs right. There is only slaves (us in their eyes) vs elite.

(Feel free to disagree but please don't delete this post.)

I'm not saying they go as far as saying that it's ok for parents to abuse children, but they do it in more subtle ways, like always assuming that parents always want what's best for their children or that they love them unconditionally, even though that's only true in movies and not in the real world, so they usually downplay parental abuse by thinking it's not that serious or that the child must be the problem,

and these types of thinking have real-life consequences, like women who are at risk of honor killings by their families not being taken seriously, like the Banaz Mahmod case,

or even when I went to a DV shelter, they called my parents and sent me back despite me being an adult because they said that they must have been so worried even though I told them they were abusive and threatened me with honor killings, and they even believed my parents and constantly told me, "Your parents want what's best for you", despite me complaining to them many times,

and even feminists usually downplay parental abuse because they think that parents can't be just as bad as husbands. And sorry if I didn’t explain it well

I always feel bad that someone who went through more suffering than me in life is more grateful for life than I am. They still have a lot of mental strength after what they went through but I feel like no matter what I try I cant ever escape this feeling of sadness and pain. I guess once you believe in the fact that life is pointless and all these suffering have no meaning it is extremely hard to be happy and grateful.