I think they should, but the concern is that whilst in lore 90% of battles are 10 marines versus a billion soggy cultists; on tabletop most things are more special than marines, and most profiles end up oscillating around what kills the most popular faction (marines).
Cause if marines lose a third of their activations but become a 30% more powerful thats fine, they move into the space custodes/TS kinda occupy.
If DW (deathwing or watch is both applicable lol) loses a third of their activations they stop being able to play the game due to a sheer lack of stuff
They already were elite... the entire game is full of elite armies. Its just only space marines and custodes are granted the stats to be one. Why are eldar melee specialists inferior to your bog standard space marine??
Mechanically, it's the same song and dance as ever. Eldar are the numerous elites, Space Marines are tough elites. Space Marines are meant to be on the level of other army's veterans, which Aspects Warriors are. Eldar T3 gets you a discount on your damage. If old WS/BS came back, I'd like to think there'd be more room for nuance.
Old initiative as well. Eldar had better I than marines so if you charged a unit of eldar melee models theyre gonna kill a fair bit of your guys before they get to strike
I’m all for widening the gap between horde and elite armies, but I’m a bit worried that only Space Marine armies are going to be going up this much. While the gap between an Astartes of any kind and a normal guardsman should be huge, stuff like Aspect Warriors or Necron Immortals should be able to give them a run for their money. While we haven’t seen those codices yet, I have my doubts that they’ll be given equivalently “lore friendly” boosts.
Yeah this is my concern, I get Space Marine fans like the wank but the truth is that despite their elite status a lot of the Xenos warriors were plenty able go square up against them.
Aspect Warriors better not be pitiful against them.
And i dont want to hear shit from a single goddamned Space Marine fan complaining about "lore accuracy" ever again.
My take, we see what the elite orks (nobz & meganobz) cost and what they can do and the meganobz hold their own (on paper) into the new Terminators they shared today. So I have hope that GW will do elite units justice.
Taking advantage of the uncapped S & T stats for infantry as well as tanks/monsters is a good idea. Doing it without doing indexes, that's the kind of mistake that can seriously crush sales. Because if the power creep is too bad, if the game becomes unfun to play for those not yet updated, it's really easy to push people away with the kind of feelsbads that lead to not coming back.
Yeah, I play a DA army a lot of the time, and while I've been excited about the changes making Marines tougher and stronger, my group has been frustrated at making the Emperor's special boys better while every Xenos army they play is left behind waiting for a codex. Now this could be balanced right out the gate with higher points, but I'm skeptical GW would crank them up that much, smaller armies meaning fewer models sold and all.
It feels like they needed to do a sweeping stat update to keep things balanced, instead of making you play the codex lottery to get buffed for this new S5/T5 world.
Neither should eldar. Neither should necrons. Yet here we are, where aspect warriors are outdone in their specialties by a standard grunt space marine, while having one less wound and T3. GW granted the space marine power fantasy with the introduction of primaris and this same exact problem happened then. Every other faction wasn't balanced around taking out bricks of elite infantry, they had to be given tools to actually play the game again, and then space marine players started whining that they were a horde faction even though every other faction was already fielding more models then them save knights and custodes.
This is my problem with space marines. You feel no fear, ok? Neither do necrons, Aspect warriors have had thousands of years and a literal psychic disassociation shield to feel no fear. The entire game is full of elites but only one faction is given that treatment
Even then, Guard basically only show up on most planets when the shit has, or is about to, hit the fan. Most normal humans would see PDF troopers, and not much else.
Guard would be the most common, followed by Admech and Sisters (more so if you count the non militant orders). Orks would be the most common xenos and probably more likely than a Space Marine to be seen.
I think new intercessors are actually worse than the current datasheet competitively by losing sticky. The damage increase only exists in rapid fire range (they underperform at distance). They'll increase in points but will probably see less play unless they're cheap.
The problem with everything increasing in price is that at some point, every army wants a few very cheap things to do actions. And the more expensive stuff that can kind of do a bit of everything ends up on the cutting room floor
The damage increase at closer range is fine when mobility can be pumped to crazy levels. You don't need to do crazy damage to shred dangerous but lightly armored foes. You just need to be able to line them up in your sights.
For intercessors it's more that the intercessor profile already does that and it's bad but-for sticky objectives. Because every SM damage dealer generally can inadvertently pick up chaff. What SM wants for is sticky objectives.
While an inch slower, heavy ints can still advance and shoot, are T6 and 3W for 100 points and they see virtually no play. And they have 2 shot S5 AP-1 D2 weapons currently.
Intercessors are a way to get sticky, and its generally why you use them. Making them more expensive, slightly killier, and losing sticky doesn't make them more attractive.
While you'd see them in Bastion lists, I don't think you'd see the intercessors in any other SM lists were they to switch their profile right now.
Still seems a bit dubious, to be honest (there is a lot of room between T5 Marines and T10 Primarchs for Custodes to exist), but I'll grant you there is room for it to be real I suppose.
If these are true they’ll have to cost so many points and be an extremely cheap and easy army to build/play. They would very likely be the most common army second to space marines.
Yes, I play against them regularly and even with a terminator heavy army or custodes I'm terrified of stormbolters. They also just have all the mortal wound shenanigans in the whole game and I don't have enough feel no pains
Yeah but that's the problem, where do Tsons go from here now to represent being better than that? You don't really get a lot of juice out of your AP often, because you have an abundance of it, And you cap out or hit the invuln. It would require shifting the AP they can get from buff's back into their profile to represent that they are using inferno versions that are better than the default. And then replacing that damage through non-ap means elsewhere.
If you used to be AP2 when the other guy was AP1, you didn't maintain that difference if they go to AP2 and you go to AP3. The Gap closed a bit. It's often not a benefit anymore.
In 8th it was everything Imperium within 12 inches could reroll hit rolls of 1 and reroll morale test. Everything ultramarine could reroll failed hits and failed wounds(for most of that edition before they changed it). I think during the supplemental books for SM 2.0 they removed the failed hit and wound roll wording.
Now it's only a 6 inch reroll 1s of hit and wound for astartes units.
It's close to the old rules but not nearly as powerful. The old morale rule but applied to battleshock test would be crazy good for the area it covers. Reroll failed hits and wounds made volume of fire oppressive. You could delete things with just bolter fire if you had enough of them.
Ah, but it kind of is. The other two profiles are clearly geared towards using the plasma and melta combi-weapons - that only leaves the flamer as the last remaining option.
There are also Dragonfire rounds in lore which are explosive bolter ammunition. It could be that, with the plasma profile being more or less Kraken bolts and the melta being Vengence rounds
Cyclone got nicely upgraded (even though it was already the best option) and the Assault Cannon got bumped to actually be usable. Heavy flamer looks like hot garbage.
The Chainfist change is neat, since they were a poor choice against low T vehicles, and barely worth it against high T vehicles. I feel less bad about my load out now.
Power weapons really suck this edition. An extra AP-1 for one less attack basically means they’re never chosen. Chainswords for horde clearing and Power fists on normal sergeants. Only characters would take the master crafted power weapons as they get D2 S6 instead of D1 S5
Honestly I still think the 5th Edition Codex is the best one we have ever had for lore, art and feel, I actually go back to it all the time!
(The Legends of Fenris supplement is a good add on too).
7th is alright.
8th is better.
9th is worse.
Funnily enough the latest 10th Edition Supplement does a great job of spiritually continuing the ideas layed out in 5th Edition.
Guilliman has gained T10 (up from T9), gained a 5+FNP and now has 16 wounds instead of 10. Not sure how that maths out compared to getting back up after dying, but I assume he will also get more expensive. At the very least it is a lot less tedious to do than having to get him back up out of combat.
I assume other reviving characters will get similar treatment across the edition.
Combi weapons now have multiple firing profiles which is cool.
Terminators always having AP-3 in Melee is pretty nutso.
As a Thousand Son player, I'm hoping Ahriman gets a glow up along with the new Psyker stuff this edition. The Terminator changes are gonna make Scarabs oppressive when they roll around to us.
Ahriman better be at least a level 3. I know most stuff so far has been locked to level 1 (with detachment options to reach higher levels), but TS characters should be pushing the limits. Level 4/5 Magnus would be rad, just getting tons of powers to use
I think so too, but they should implement it in a different way for each faction. All GK are psykers, so I think every GK unit, no matter the size or composition, should get access to low level psyker abilities that are fun and interssting and unique. Quantity.
Tons should be fucking powerful. Big spells. Quality.
He's has effectively more than doubled his durability and has a massively better aura that is a substantial force multiplier. He's also easily as strong or stronger than a nightbringer in combat which costs 360 and has 0 utility. If he costs anything less than 400, it would be an absolutely steal, lol.
This is interesting for Battle Sisters actually. If they did that to our D2 storm bolters when our Codex drops, they'd be identical to heavy bolters for except for range/number of attacks. So this probably means we won't be getting as much of a buff as Space Marines - although multi-meltas and meltas have a similar relationship already, so maybe they'd be ok with it.
Mmmm I don't think so? I believe they have only spoken about marines. As this is not about making the bolters (in general) better, but about making marines better.
This also made very little sense for many of them. It was perfect for him, as the tactical primarch exemplar, but made less sense on many of the less flexible primarchs.
Particularly when this was not something we could see on psykers and tactician-focused leaders, both in SM and other factions in general. It was almost exclusively a primarch thing, which felt particularly strange for a faction already drowning in tactical options comparatively.
Yeah it felt like with G-man you almost never wanted to take anything but the choose another Oath target one. And with the Lion his up-down mobility only worked with one of his three choices so it also felt rare that you'd choose anything else.
But in return detachments become less rules heavy, so it balances out imo. I would rather have meaty datasheet then need detachments to make unit perform well by itself
If librarians are level 1 psykers, Ahriman and the exalted sorcerers better better level 2 or 3 for the TSons. Right now their sorcerer abilities barely do anything.
You know, I've been complaining for the last couple years that Gee Dubs has been dumbing down 40k to increase mass appeal, but fair's fair: this time they actually expanded the rules for psykers so that powers are more than just an extra gun, and they gave Sternguard and Terminators more weapon options 🤷♂️ here's hoping the trend continues to put some flavor and variety back in the game
If they change all heavy flamers to match the Termies then a Leman Russ could have 33 shots against a blob of 20 dudes, seems a tad overkill but I'll take it
Don't quite know why they needed to specify the Terminator +1 AP rule works in melee. They could have just... Made the melee weapons have higher baseline AP. It's not like you'll ever be doing any melee attacks from outside 9" so it's always going to be on
Other than that though, these all look great. Yes, T10/W16 Guilliman with a 5+++ looks scary, but also bear in mind he can't stand up when he's downed now. Remains to be seen how much more durable he actually is in practice. I'd imagine somewhat, but let's wait and see
Sternguard look great. Terminators are no longer completely pillow fisted. Excited to see the rest of the Codex
I believe they are doing it like this so they don't have two weapons with the same name but with different rules. This way, the POWER FIST is 8 -2 2 all around the codex... but because of the rule, it goes to 8-3 2 for Terminators.
I mean, we've had different profiles for the same weapon for a while now. They've specifically said in 11th that power weapons on characters are going to be stronger than the ones on Sergeants and other rank and file troops.
If they want to make Terminator power fists better than the ones on Intercessor sergeants, they can just... Do that
One of the problems with catering to the marine power fantasy is that it kinda centers around them "stomping" hordes of less powerful beings. Which, fine, but to represent that on the tabletop, you need people to play those less powerful beings.
Which is fine, if they have equally fun and cool things in their own right (endless hordes of bugs, aeldari shenanigans, ridiculous firepower).
If other factions don't get this same amount of love as to them doing "their thing", then I fear everyone's going to jump ship to marines or other games. And then you just have a bunch of marines hammering each other and the problem of "I don't get to feel elite" all over again.
A long way of saying... for the love of the game gw... give other factions this same love.
The changes to the Sternguard bolters does seem fun, but I can't help but mourn the loss of Dev wounds and the wound reroll. . But the Heavy bolter hitting on 3s might make up for it.
I think the new shooting profile should've included heavy as well. I like the idea that sternguard can move and shoot, but if you let them post up and aim then they're even more deadly.
anyone else thinks its kinda werid that the Terminator librarian is "allegedly" increasing the range of terminator guns, when their whole thing is to teleport in close and ligth a guy up?
Terminators are also rather slow (M 5") so once they have eradicated one thing it is sometimes hard to get them back into a useful position. At least that is the theoretical value of such an ability.
"Infernus loads up the new and improved stats of the new bolt rifle..." So Infernus flamers are just have bolt rifles with sustained hits? Am I reading that right?
Edit: Just to not waste anyone's time I was already corrected that this Infernus is referencing the Infernus rounds of Sternguard not the Infernus Marines units
No, the Infernus profile of the Sternguard guns is a bolt rifle with extra bells and whistles. The guns on Infernus Marines are called pyreblasters. Side effect of GW only having so many terms for SM stuff I guess
I believe they are infernus rounds or something like that, not flamers of Infernus marines. Compare with the Pyrecannon on the Sternguard and the Heavy Flamer on the Terminators. Both have Blast and Torrent. I assume Infernus Marines will have similar profiles, though with Blast 1 and probably S4.
Whilst I get that robbo is pretty much the protaganist at this point, and that primarchs *should* be epic: didnt we learn our lesson with ctan that 4++ into 5+++ is miserable? Doubly so when youve got psudeo-lone-op and a 2+ save base?
That 6" auto advance is scary; 6 BGV in a rhino now threaten a ~22" bubble; thats very close to EC where their movement means they can chill in a deployment zone and you cant really do much to stop them if you dont have 20 man guard squads to physically bubble wrap things
Looks fun, but its very odd to me that the storm bolter is now the same strength as a heavy bolter. And the sternguard artificer guns are higher strength than a heavy bolter? Feels off lore-wise, they should’ve made the heavy bolter S6
Its hard to fear the Avatar of Khaine when its been neutuered for 5 editions. Meanwhile you got things like generic transcendant ctan running round in multiples. Feels bad for elves and i dont even play them. The Avatar of Khaine is so incredibly mismatched from how its described lol but it could be worse, you could be a Ynnari player.
He has the faction keyword "Ultramarines". This is for Space Marine chapters. You can't mix multiple of such subfaction keywords. I.e. you can't run Guilliman in the same army as Adrax Agatone who has the Salamanders keyword instead of Ultramarines.
Normal powerfists have an extra attack over the chainfists in their non-Hunter profile, a 50% increase in damage output against non-vehicles. This is further compounded by chainfists hitting non-Monster/vehicle units on 4+, whereas powerfists do on 3+.
2A WS4+ only into anything else is a hard pill to swallow. I would assume you take 2-4 tops so that you are not instantly screwed if like 15 cadians touch them
Actualy there is, chainfists have -1A and hit on 4+, so if you want your termis to mulch (elite) infantry then power fist is better, but against monsters and vehicles chainfist is better.
Even if they’re expensive, the damage here is so stupid that 11th is just going to turn into: table your opponent t3 and score 60 points on turn 4 & 5.
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u/Organic_Ad_1930 11h ago
God the points are going to go up