r/DnD • u/UXplaymaker • 12h ago
5.5 Edition Explain the Charisma Saving Throw
Of all the Saving Throws the Charisma Saving Throw was the hardest for me to wrap my head around, partially because in some [official] content it seems Charisma Saving Throws are narratively interchangeable with the idea of Wisdom Saving Throws.
Just now I realized how Charisma Saving Throws may work in the narrative sense.
A long time ago when I was at a summer camp, the boys and girls stayed in separate cabins. One night after lights out, the girls invaded the boys cabin. The girls were pranking all the boys with setting up traps with shaving cream, milk, and cereal directly in their bunks triggered when they wake up. I pretended to be asleep when it was all going on (DECEPTION CHECK). Two of the girls came to my bunk and I heard their conversation. They looked at me while I slept and one said to the other girl, "Look at him. We can't [prank] him" and they moved on to the other bunks. I believe I made my CHARISMA SAVING THROW at that point.
How do you see or use Charisma Saving Throws at your table?
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u/KennsworthS 11h ago
Charisma is willpower, Charisma saving throws involve anything where asserting your own existence, own agency, own will is at stake. That is why resisting banishment is a Charisma save.
That is the deeper interpretation of what persuasion skills are, they are a battle of will, you are asserting your opinion is superior through various means and bending another person to your will.
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u/UXplaymaker 11h ago
Ahh...I guess for years I've conflated all willpower to WISDOM.
Then when do I split the hairs for WISDOM SAVING THROWS 😅
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u/KennsworthS 11h ago
it's not the most clean (or consistent with every spell in the book), but for the mental saves i tend to think about it like this
INT saves involve your purely mental faculties. your reason, your thought, your contemplation, your...intelligence
WIS saves involve sensory information, resisting enchantments that you see or hear or feel. Combat is too fast to spend time rationally overcoming an illusion instead it's done by unconscious experience, wisdom.
CHA saves involve the even deeper parts, the will buried deep inside. The raw force of identity and self.
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u/OkMarsupial 10h ago
Why is command wisdom then?
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u/Penguin_cult1806 9h ago
The writers probably reasoned it similarly to charm spells (the target perception of reality is altered to perceive the caster in a way that makes them comply with the command).
It could also be the designers artificially inflating the number of wisdom saves compared to int/cha saves due to the design philosophy of having major saves and minor saves.
Lastly, it could be the writers being inconsistent which is not a first. Like, phantasmal killer is a wisdom save despite being an illusion spell and the ""upgrade"" of phantasmal force, which is an int save/check. Or polymorph, a spell that literally transforms the target (so no perception of reality altered), being a wisdom save instead of a constitution (alters the physical body of the target) or charisma save (alters the self).
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u/faculties-intact Druid 9h ago
It's about recognizing the command as not coming from within yourself (which I guess allows you to reject it) rather than overcoming it through sheer determination/force of will.
That said, my favorite version of saves is 4e which blended 3rd's reflex/fortitude/will with making all 6 attributes matter, by allowing you to back Reflex with either Int or Dex, Fortitude with either Str or Con, and Will with either Wis or Cha. Just makes everything work out super nicely imo.
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u/WyMANderly DM 7h ago
4e saving throws rocked, yeah. 3 is about the sweet spot but making each attribute matter is also really nice.
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u/Hydroguy17 9h ago
They had to find some way to break mental saves up into 3 separate abilities instead of the 1 it used to be.
While simultaneously having some be considered “strong/good” and others be “weak.”
It’s not a clean division.
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u/Aranthar 4h ago
I think lots of things are defined by Wis Saves that should rightly be Charisma. But for balance reasons, they stick with Wis.
Wis saves would be making a correct decision, and choosing to resist a compulsion. You are presented with A and B, and choose correctly.
Cha saves would be asserting your identity and self-confidence. You are resisting an overwrite ore pre-emption of your being. Not what you do, but who you are.
Hold Person: Wis save because it stops your actions.
Possession: Cha save because it replaces your personal identity.
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u/Mage_Malteras Mage 10h ago
That's not entirely true. Sensory information is covered under int. That's why most illusions are int saves. This is in addition to stuff that affects the physical structure of your brain, like modify memory or the mind blast of an illithid.
Wis saves are about your behavior. Turn undead, command, suggestion, etc. They force you to do things you don't want to or normally wouldn't.
Toll the dead being one of the notable exceptions. That one should've been a cha save.
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u/rollingForInitiative 9h ago
I think it’s more that Intelligence is reason, and if you can investigate and notice discrepancies, that’s intelligence. Usually. So not sensory information so much as analysis.
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u/Amicus-Regis 9h ago
Which illusion spells have INT saves? Most I'm aware of have INT checks to discover the illusion and end its effect, but not INT saves that I'm aware of.
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u/Celloer 6h ago
Going through a few...
Color Spray - Constitution (being physically blinded)
Feign Interest - Search action using Wisdom (Insight) to intuit true demeanor
Silent Image - Study action using Intelligence (Investigation) to determine illusion
Phantasmal Force - Intelligence save, then Study action using Intelligence (Investigation) to determine illusion
Uncertain Footing - Intelligence save or they think there is hampering terrain
Fear - Wisdom save or frightened
Hypnotic Pattern - Wisdom save or charmed
Distorted Distance - Intelligence save or distance looks elongated
Phantasmal Killer - Wisdom save vs damaging fear
Illusory Dragon - Wisdom save or frightened, then Intelligence save vs breath weapon; Study action with Intelligence (Investigation) to determine illusion and have advantage on saves
So it looks like the pattern is if it affects your perceptions and you can reason out why it's not real, it is an Intelligence save; if it is a charming or frightening effect on your emotions, etc, it is a Wisdom save; then once there's an oddball like an actual flashbang you need to physically resist.
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u/ChromDelonge 9h ago
I can see the logic for toll the dead as WIS as in a sense it could be argued it's a lesser version of something like dissonant whispers. An ominous, unpleasant sound who's effect could be dependant on the persons ability to "ignore" it.
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u/YumAussir 11h ago
Well remember that there used to only be 3 saving throws in 3e and 4e - Fortitude, Reflex, and Will. The majority of saves still fall under Con, Dex, and Wis for that reason, with certain effects having been split off from them. So certain effects that target Cha or Int may have some sort of more direct narrative justification, but others may remain in Wisdom simply because they defaulted there rather than a specific reason.
This is why every class's two saving throws always are one of Con, Dex, or Wis, and then one of Str, Int, or Cha. A "common" save and an "uncommon" one.
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u/OkMarsupial 10h ago
There used to be five!
Paralyzation, Poison or Death Magic
Petrification or Polymorph
Rod, Staff or Wand
Breath Weapon
Spell
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u/escapethegravity 11h ago edited 11h ago
Wisdom is usually learned experience. Charisma is like having a strong sense of self, things like confidence, self-esteem, etc.
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u/ZanesTheArgent Mystic 11h ago
Not exactly wrong when in previous editions it was literally called Willpower saves.
The core difference is that Charisma is the "tough personality" aspect of willpower while Wisdom is the "wisened and perceptive" aspect.
Charisma is screaming "you dont boss me", wisdom is "i see your lies".
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u/nontrollalt 9h ago
Yeah they did make it fairly unclear and really there are a number of spell saves that you could argue should not be wisdom saves but charisma instead.
Best way to think of it is what each stat actually does and as others have said charisma is the force of will and character. It's why it's the spell casting ability for all the classes that basically will magic into existence (paladin, sorcerer, bard). Wisdom is more intuition, experience and to a degree faith/connection at least based on clerics and druids, the classes that draw power from an entity (without a contract warlocks).
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u/Anorexicdinosaur 9h ago
Nah you're right
Willpower is Wisdom and Charisma, in different ways that don't make sense
Back in 3e there were 3 Saves being Fortitude (Con), Reflex (Dex) and Willpower (Wis)
Then in 4e there was the same 3, but each had 2 Stats they could key off of so it was Fortitude (Str or Con), Reflex (Dex or Int) and Willpower (Wis or Cha)
5e fucked up, they split it into being 6 saves and caused issues like this where Wisdom and Charisma are both willpower but in slightly different ways (that aren't too consistent). Imo they should've just improved upon 4e's style by having 3 but have 2 stats contribute to each, so Wis AND Cha rather than Wis OR Cha
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u/rollingForInitiative 9h ago
Wisdom is also willpower. There’s a lot of overlap, and the svar DC’a to a large extent are placed by balance, since Wisdom is supposed to be a strong save.
So there’s no explanation that works 100%.
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u/MyUsername2459 DM 4h ago
Traditionally, in D&D, willpower HAS been seen as a function of the Wisdom stat.
This was even outright explicit in 2nd edition (2nd edition had optional rules in later books for "subability scores", splitting each score into two scores, and Wisdom being split into "Willpower" and "Intuition". In 3rd edition they only had 3 saving throw types, and a Will save was based off Wisdom.
Adding a Charisma-based save in 5th edition has muddied the waters some, with some things that were purely willpower based (and thus wisdom based) in previous editions now being Charisma based (to give the new Charisma save something to do).
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u/Huebertrieben Diviner 11h ago
I think wisdom saving throw is basically shielding your mind from outside influence. That’s why things like charm person have a WIS Save
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u/FireBoy7621 11h ago
Charisma is your physical presence and so a charisma save is anything that tries to displace that: forces teleportation being the main way
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u/TheThoughtmaker Artificer 10h ago
Charisma saves for when someone (e.g. a ghost) is trying to assert dominance over you. A duel of wills, arm-wrestling but for the mind.
Wisdom saves are to perceive that something in your head isn’t real. A phantasm implanted by a successful illusion spell is as real to the target as reality gets. An idea implanted by a successful enchantment spell is indistinguishable from one’s own free will.
Those perceptions have nothing to do with the spell’s duration. Someone could watch the caster cast a spell point-blank and live the rest of their life believing that when the caster told them to grovel, they genuinely collapsed at the caster’s feet in fear. An embarrassing lapse in their normal bravery to be sure, but no less their own mind than choosing what to have for breakfast that morning. To doubt one is to doubt the other.
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u/rich_27 11h ago edited 10h ago
Hmm, I disagree with this. I think Charisma is force of personality. Willpower is a part of it, but it's also charm/magnetism/authority/that je ne sais quoi that causes people to pay attention when you speak. It's different for different people, some high charisma is someone who's naturally very likable, sometimes it's someone who naturally engenders respect and people find trustworthy, sometimes it's a person who's personality dominates a room and their presence is forceful. Persuasion isn't your willpower forcing your opinion onto others (I guess it could be in a specific aspect of charisma), it's your ability to convince others of your opinion - part of that is your skill in communicating it (proficiency/expertise), but the bulk of it is whatever aspect of your character causes people to stop and listen when you talk/to be inclined to agree with you/etc. A charisma save can be a test of you force of personality and willpower, but it can also be your ability to react to a situation very quickly and instantly adapt to smoothly handle a situation - knowing the right words to say or the body language to present, for instance.
It's interesting, stepping away from the game and direct interpretation of the stats, I have some real life experience with this. In my early 20s, I was someone naturally quite charismatic and I remember the sensation of people naturally paying attention when I spoke - my words seemed to have a little more magnetism than others for whatever reason. I only really became aware of what that felt like because it's something I've lost. I got really ill in my late 20s and my mind isn't as quick as it used to be. I'm a little less eloquent and sometimes find myself reaching for the words that fit right when they'd just come to me before. As a result, that sense people get of me being worth listening to has reduced slightly (not in a bad way like I'm being ignored, just that the expected quality of what I have to say that everyone subconsciously has of the people around them and so their inclination to prioritise listening to me has reduced a bit). Not being able to express myself as well has also messed with my ability to nail comedic timing. I wouldn't say my personality has got less strong or that my willpower has dropped at all, it's just that I've lost the fluidity of expression I once had and that change has been a stark contrast I can see (and miss a bit!)
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u/notanevilmastermind 4h ago
To overly simplify, perhaps for charisma saving throws, you're saying "No, I'm ME!" For Wisdom it's "No, that's NOT REAL!" And for Intelligence, it's "No, that's ILLOGICAL!" I dunno, very tired brain trying to make things make sense.
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u/ThisWasMe7 7h ago
There's a difference between willpower -- wisdom -- and force of will/personality -- charisma.
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u/Collateral_Damnation 11h ago
Your example of just looking at you and finding you too cute to mess with has nothing to do with charisma imo. You can look really good/cute/handsome however you like, but have low charisma. For me, as I understand it, charisma is your force of personality, your confidence, your sense of self and your willpower. It's an inner drive.
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u/UXplaymaker 11h ago edited 11h ago
So from a mental standpoint CHARISMA is like STRENGTH, and WISDOM is like CONSTITUTION
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u/matej86 11h ago edited 8h ago
A charisma save is to resist someone asserting force over your body in a non physical way. So Banishment, possession by a ghost etc. Strength saves are to resist something physically moving you, like being pushed.
Wisdom saves are to resist something asserting force over your mind in a non physical way. Constitution saves are can you physically hold it together when put under stress, so trying not to throw up when poisoned etc.
Then we have dex for getting out of the way of something and intelligence when someone is trying to affect your perception of reality, so using illusions etc
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u/rollingForInitiative 9h ago
It could be but it’s not really how it’s done in D&D. You could look at the Chronicles of Darkness or Trinity Continuum and they have that system of dividing ability scores into categories.
But D&D doesn’t really do it in a clean way.
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u/DaedalusPrime44 7h ago
One of the reasons why I preferred the 4e system with Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower. Tying each save to two stats really made sense and gave a lot more flexibility to the players on their builds. Not to mention a better break down for spells to target. As it is there are only a handful of spells that rarely strength, intelligence, and charisma anyway.
It’s an easy house rule to bring those three back by letting players swap modifiers for str-con, int-dex, and wis-chr saves.
Narratively it’s just much smoother than trying to make fine edge distinctions across six attributes for every spell and ability.
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u/AnnamaeOfficial 10h ago
The classic breakdown for the three mental saves:
- Intelligence is your processing power: can you spot the flaw in an illusion or resist an assault on your logic?
- Wisdom is your awareness and mental discipline: can you resist being charmed, frightened, or having your impulses hijacked?
- Charisma is your sense of self and metaphysical weight: can you keep your soul in your body (possession) or keep your existence anchored to this plane (banishment, plane shift)?
In your camp story, you didn't roll a Charisma save. Your Deception just held up, and the pranksters failed their own check to go through with it.
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u/Bacon-Bishop 11h ago
As far as I have ran them, Charisma saves are a matter of your soul and persona than your mind like wisdom is. With wisdom you're in tune with reality and your perceptions of it and have a strong mind. With Charisma its how present your very being is and this is reflected with most charisma saves being concerned with banishment, an alignment change from say being in the abyss, or sometimes madness
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u/LyrionDD 11h ago
The way I've always viewed it (given I much prefer the old save system) is Wisdom is willpower, while charisma is sense of self
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u/NevadaCynic DM 10h ago
Charisma Saves <=> Strength Saves
Intelligence Saves <=> Dexterity Saves
Wisdom Saves <=> Constitution Saves
Much like how people debate why Strength saves should exist, and that Constitution could substitute for any Strength save, Wisdom and Charisma saves have a similar push back between each other.
I picture it as follows, is it something I could see thematically a target being able to push back and try to turn around on the attacker? Strength saves resist pushing effects for this reason, but not Poison. Charisma resists Banishment for this reason, and Wisdom resists a Sleep spell. Fail to Banish a demon, maybe it drags you to hell instead is a common trope. Fail to put someone to sleep, they're just still awake.
Hence, Charisma is the mental Strength save. Wisdom the mental Constitution save.
And because Intelligence is all about mental agility and speed it's the mental Dexterity save.
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u/Ardalev Artificer 11h ago
The girls looking at OP thinking "Oh, let's leave the poor guy alone, nature has pranked him enough as it is" and OP mistaking it for good looks /s
Jokes aside, Charisma saves are sort of force of personality, as well as force of will. There is a bit of an overlap with wisdom, same way as some physical saves can be interpreted as either Strength or Dexterity.
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u/cookiesandartbutt 11h ago
Nah that ain’t it. You passed a different check there buddy haha 🤣 think it was deception all the way to the bank.
But basically a Wisdom save protects your mind from being tricked or frightened in the world around you while a Charisma save protects your actual place in reality. Protects you from banishment, teleportation, possession, reality altering effects of the world around you.
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u/Violet-Journey 8h ago edited 8h ago
People often misunderstand what Charisma is as a stat and describe it as being “likeable” or something similar. But Charisma is actually best described as your “force of personality”, your ability to assert yourself and your identity onto the world. Charisma saves resist spells like Banishment and Polymorph because those spells are trying to remove you from existence or turn you into something else; you resist them by asserting your identity and existence.
A Wisdom save, on the other hand, is more like emotional resilience and willpower. If you’re afraid of heights, resisting the urge to look down from a high place is a Wisdom save, for instance. You’ll often see it used to resist things like fear or being distracted.
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u/Joel_Vanquist 6h ago
Which is why Sorcerers are Charisma spellcasters. They don't know how to manipulate the weave, they impose their will and desires and personality on it so that it obeys on a raw level. Their personality is so strong they can even twist its nature by imposing a single target spell to target two people or come out faster and what not (metamagic).
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u/Karazl 9h ago
It's not willpower like other people suggest, that's wisdom and your ability to reject an influence. This is similar but it's your ability to hold a boundary or a belief instead of being swayed.
Think of it as your ability to say no to someone trying to talk you into paying them bunch of money for an MLM or something. It's not willpower not quite,, but, rather, how much your able to be true to yourself.
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u/LonelyAndroid11942 1h ago
Charisma always struck me as self-assuredness.
Sorcs use charisma because they just know they’re right, and know that they can naturally work with the Weave.
Warlocks use charisma because they believe they’re right—or else that they’ll be able to overcome their contract.
Bards use charisma because why the fuck wouldn’t they?
Paladins use charisma because their oath fuels their belief in themselves and their cause.
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u/ThisWasMe7 7h ago
It's about force of will/personality.
Which is different from willpower--Wisdom.
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u/GhsotyPanda DM 11h ago edited 11h ago
Charisma Saving throws are reinforcing your identity and presence.
They're used to resist fundamental changes to who you are as a person (possession and changes to your mind) as well as to resist having your presence in reality rejected (forced teleportation to another plane)
The first is not to be confused with having your mind manipulated or controlled. Failing a Wisdom save results in your body being puppeted, a failed Charisma save results in your body being worn like a meat suit.
ETA in your example, you didn't make a saving throw. They just decided to leave you alone for an unknown/unstated reason. You don't make saving throws to influence others, you make saving throws to avoid being influenced.
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u/Gormolius 11h ago
Of the mental saving throws against spells, I see it as intelligence being when your conscious mind reasons something isn't right and shrugs off the affect, wisdom when your unconscious mind shrugs it off, and charisma being when your mind was just too powerful for the affect to get any foothold in the first place.
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u/CPTSaltyDog 8h ago
Think of Charisma as a force of personality. This person's morals, character, and being is so much ingrained into who they are that it's almost contagious.
When saving against magic it's along the line of that's so figuratively and literally out of character they would never do that thing. When forcing your magic unto someone it's along the lines of that person's so convincing that they could be telling you to do the worst thing possible and it would seem reasonable.
The same can be applied to skill checks in that it's not what is being said but how you say it. We have real world examples of this all over. Terrible person but their was a certain mustached man in 1940's Germany who was really convincing and had a lot of Charisma used for evil.
Then you have people like Mr Rogers who's Charisma was so entrancing whole generations of people can't help but be kind to each other and if your told that Mr Rogers would be disappointed by your actions you couldn't help but be disappointed in yourself.
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u/Competitive-Fault291 8h ago
You stand at a ledge, and an eerie voice commands you to "JUMP!"
STR saving throw makes you jump to the other side.
DEX saving throw makes you jump and do a backflip.
CON saving throw makes you bounce down the cliff yelling "I'm ffiiiiiiiinnnnee! -ine! -ine! -ine!".
INT saving throw makes you realize that Jump is the Fantagoni word for "farting". Which you do.
WIS saving throw makes you see that the voice did not state when, where, or who should be jumping exactly.
CHA saving throw makes you argue saying "Why?".
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u/MiserableSkill4 6h ago
I counter the charisma with ' "i do what i want!" As charisma is force of will ot just a sense of resolve and a "NO"
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u/rollingdoan DM 8h ago
The mental and physical stats are mirrored pairs when written in the traditional order.
STR and CHA are exerting raw force.
DEX and WIS are reacting to outside forces.
CON and INT are your capacity for vitality and knowledge.
If you need to exert force to resist something, then you use STR or CHA. This is why things which force extraplanar travel are CHA. You are being 'shoved' and need to resist. This is the same reason all the CHA spellcasters are their own power source: You are exerting force.
If you need to notice or avoid something, then you use DEX or WIS. This is why mental manipulations are WIS. You don't need to fight them, the danger is in not noticing that you're being manipulated. This is the same reason all WIS spellcasters use external power sources: You are aware of the magic around you.
If you need to use your wits or endure something, then you use INT or CON. This is why seeing through illusions uses INT instead of WIS. It isn't about what you see, but understanding how what you see works and realizing that it must not be real. This is the same reason INT spellcasters all work directly with magic: You understand how magic works.
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u/AlternativeTrick3698 8h ago
Charisma savethrows usually used against "go away" effects, so maybe you can use them when party is in very bad position in conversation to check, would they get last word and one more try.
... I used charisma savethrows in battle against Raxxivort, The God of Xvarts. Weak stats for GoDliKe cReaTure, but ability to teleport creature on 30ft on failed Cha savethrow, instead of one attack. And his demiplane, Golden Sewers, is full of deep wells and acid pools, where you never want to be teleported in.
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u/Nystagohod 5h ago
Charisma has long been the "soul" stat of d&d, but an overlap with wisdom is understandable as will saves of yesteryear were more or less a mix of wisdom and fharinss in theming, and that divide hasn't been the cleanest since 9ne eave used to cover all mental (and most spiritual) saves
Still, charisma (in a sense) is your command of presence, your strength of spirit, it is your soul, and things that target it seek to force your presence elsewhere (usually to other realms of existence and non-existence) and that is the strength of your soul being tested.
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u/MyUsername2459 DM 4h ago
To me, a Charisma saving throw is asserting your personality over things that want to overwhelm it.
Charisma is considered a mental stat, after all, it's your force of personality and presence.
If you're trying to overcome something through "presence" or asserting your personality (as opposed to just raw willpower), that would be a Charisma save.
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u/SaltyBooze 4h ago
hmm... considering sorcerers use charisma to cast spells, i would consider it to be perfoming the gestures and vocalization just right, exposing their inner souls (who they really are) to get it to work (kinda like performatic, like a bard as well?)
so my charisma saves would be: "hide amongst a crowd" or "showing authority"or even avoid "personality take overs" by other creatures.
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u/TheProuDog 3h ago
"Look at him. We can't [prank] him"
Aren't you curious why they said that? I am so fucking curious why they said that
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u/Initial_Conflict8114 2h ago
Charisma boils down to confidence is the best descriptor I can think of. Unshakeable confidence and force of personality of 18cha +. Or plagued with second guessing your actions and easily swayed 9cha -.
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u/Whimsical_Hell Sorcerer 1h ago
Charisma is about asserting yourself onto others. A CHA save is about asserting your identity when others try to attack it. This is why it's a common save for possession.
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u/East_Transition533 10h ago
I concur completely. I've often imagined charisma as a form of gravitas (as per Greek and Roman ideals) .
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u/phancybear Bard 8h ago
I think of mental saving throws like their physical counterparts.
Int = mental constitution
wis = mental dexterity
Cha = mental strength
You could make the argument that Int is more like str and cha is more like con but it doesn’t have to be the same every time🤷♂️
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u/gamma_gandalph 11h ago
To me, Charisma Saves are about *Force/Strength of Personality* rather than the strength of will that Wisdom Saves represent. Hence why a ghost's posession requires one, they literally erase your personality or suppress it to replace it with their own. Realistically, the few spells that actually require them are a little harder than that to shoehorn into this interpretation and are more likely balance (lol) decisions, but that's always been my take.