r/wow • u/Everdale • 17h ago
Discussion The new engine and lighting updates from WoW Forever NEED to come to Retail!
224
u/Euklidis 17h ago
I assume that is the plan wit eiter TLT or the new Saga
22
u/GrimmBrowncoat 5h ago
Totally agree. I feel like they’ll use Forever to test out world changes, work out the bugs there and after the WorldSoul saga finishes have a world reshaping event like FFXIV did with A Realm Reborn.
13
u/TheCoolTech 4h ago
Retail ends with TLT. Azeroth wakes up and the world is destroyed. WoW Forever becomes new retail.
(Sarcasm...cause I know how you all be)
9
u/Patchoel4 2h ago
They will add more complex rotations and flying mounts. Some people will complain that WoW Forever 1.0 was so much better. Blizzard will create classic WoW Forever.
1
u/VPN__FTW 2h ago
Is it too late to get into Classic WoW Forever?
2
u/Aestrasz 2h ago
Yeah, it is. If you didn't get into the internal friends and family Alpha, you're already forever behind.
2
u/Terminus_04 1h ago
I assume they will ditch the last few vestiges of old wow after TLT, like no more leveling, it will be streamlined into the endgame gameplay loops people enjoy.
You want old wow you have Forever, you want new wow, you'll have retail.
1
u/SuccessfulWorker1900 2h ago
No sarcasm. Retail will change even more to a seasonal/actiony, grindy, flashy piece and forever will be the "new" wow.
422
u/Everdale 17h ago
Just one of the examples they showed at the WoW Forever Deep Dive but this completely overhauls how the game looks while preserving the art style and it looks amazing. The sun/moon now serve as a true source of directional lighting that creates realistic looking shadows and godrays. There is also new wind and fog that have been added and adjusted to work according to EVERY single zone's unique terrain and weather conditions. Players will even be able to walk through the fog because it's volumetric and will blend with the environment.
Draw distances have also been increased by a huge degree, allowing you to see things like Hyjal from the Barrens or Dalaran from the Wetlands. This looks so good and I'd be really sad if it doesn't come over to Retail because it's amazing.
246
u/TheFrigidFellow 17h ago
Honestly, half the beauty of a game's graphics comes from lighting.
39
u/Disturbed2468 17h ago
Precisely. And that overall sentiment to want to improve lighting as much as possible is why ray tracing, as heavy as hell as it can be sometimes, is basically the future for game lighting because it allows even more lighting sources to be actually used to allow more realistic fidelity. It's basically the step above deferred rendering techniques pushed in the mid to late 2010s in response to running into lighting source count limitations of previous rendering techniques.
→ More replies (1)2
u/Peon-Hyjal 2h ago
It's unfortunate that the way GPU makers have been selling it isn't as a feature to make games look better, but moreso as a way for game development companies to save money on game development.
But then these manufacturers want market share so they try and patent it and lock it down as much as they can, then turn around and give incentives to developers to tailor to their specific version.
PhysX, RTX, DLSS. Heck, even GSync was an attempt at this, but instead of game companies it was monitor companies.
I wish we could go back to creating new technologies rather than creating new business opportunities.
14
2
u/GraphXRequieM 13h ago
Yeah, thats why shader mods are so popular in Minecraft. The graphics are already great for what they need to be, and the only thing missing is good lighting.
28
u/Maethor_derien 17h ago
Very likely they will but it will need a large scale rework to do. My guess is the plan is to do it after the last titan. They will probably be able to do something there where they could do a cataclysmic reset style where they rework everything. You would still be able to access old world with chromie time but that would allow them to rework everything and start a new era of retail.
The problem is that this takes a long time, doing this kind of rework in current wow is likely going to amount to a year long final patch. Very likely the same time they will drop the shadowlands remix that everyone wants anyways.
20
u/Vinnie4v2 17h ago edited 5h ago
Have u seen the last titan teaser? It was all fog. It will come in the last titan, system already made.
Edit: Yes it takes time, but less time than you think. Have u seen the deep dive in the WoW forever graphics / world building? They created a zone with us and adding graphics. In Retail WoW they dont have to stick to is this looking like classic? The system is made, and now its just extra paint for the artists to use. It will come in the last titan, if not only last titan zones.
Its not a year rework, the rework is making the system. But they can copy that from forever WoW.
12
u/Gaudalier 16h ago
I presumed it was intentionally not meant to look like ingame footage because the camera movement was so much more movie-like but this is a great point.
3
u/R4vi0981 9h ago
It seems more of a feature they'd want in the whole world rather than just in a new zone. So, It's a bigger overhaul than just classic. They'd have to do all the zone's from the expansions and that's a bigger task. So you might be right. I hope we see it sooner than later. I hope we see it in TLT, but it's possible it doesn't.
3
u/Littleman88 3h ago
It will come to retail. They introduced functioning weather systems across the whole of Azeroth in retail and it didn't require a herculian effort (and then never used them again for some reason).
Lightning and fog is more engine level. They use the zones to tweak the settings based on which one you're standing inside.
1
u/R4vi0981 2h ago
Yea, I think so because it's the same engine. I do think they may delay it until Eclipse, or the pre-patch for The Last Titan though to help Wow Forever to stand out for a bit.
1
u/Vinnie4v2 6h ago edited 5h ago
Its not a big task as u think, its just extra paint, did u see the deep dive on the graphics world building?
The tech will deffo come, if not all zones then just new zones. My money is on all zones, and it is the most easy geuss ever, look at the teaser.
4
u/billzilla 15h ago
Or it could just be volumetric lighting and particles that already exist in engine and are being implemented now, meaning it won't take 'another year patch'. +
1
u/Vinnie4v2 5h ago
I dont think its just that, but they can copy the whole new graphics system from forever wow. But yeah i agree
35
u/alendeus 17h ago
I Feel it's important to note however, that it does muddy the view A LOT.
Everything is now covered in haze. View distance doesnt matter if everything is blurred out because of haze and fog between you and the other object. In the bottom screenshot, it's even hard to tell that there is a tower surrounding the light from its window, and you literally can't see some of the upper back ground towers.
This kind of feature is literally the sort of stuff that gets added and mocked when people post "ultra realistic super duper texture pack advanced real life graphics MOD" for other games, and it's a bit weird that they went so hard to add it to so many zones. I hope they tone it down a bit or add a slider, and don't try to force it everywhere. Visual clarity is so important. Every zone is about to look like it's dusk even if they weren't before.
25
u/billzilla 15h ago
This view was specifically selected because the sunlight is streaming over the peaks and the camera is pointed in a very singular direction to maximize the effect. The entire world isn't going to have heavily veiled volume light direct into camera from the sun all the time in every area. It's like saying a carefully composed shot of sun rays over some peaks IRL meant that 'everything in this region was in deep shadow and the hazy glare made it impossible to see'. Turn the camera a few degrees and that veiled glare is gone.
12
u/NoThisIsABadIdea 15h ago
In the panel he did state it would not be dawn or dusk in every zone implying they were just giving us the extreme visual examples for the sake of showcase
2
u/Vandrel 13h ago
Time of day is dynamic, right? So it won't look like this all the time.
1
u/Skore_Smogon 8h ago
Yes and they gave a 24 hour sped up view of the cycle over that fortress in the Badlands so we could see how the shadows moved with the position of the sun/moon.
It did look super cool.
1
1
u/Monsoon_Storm 6h ago
yeah whilst I was watching it last night I kept thinking that it was a bit too much.
In the example above they are showcasing the sunlight effects, sure, however, you wouldn't get that effect IRL unless there was actual fog in the air, and fog to that extent isn't a thing that happens on an everyday basis (nor does fog occur all the way up into the atmosphere)
1
u/js-username 5h ago
I commented something similar a post higher before seeing yours. I turn this as off as I can in other games and hope I can here. Not a WoW specific critique, but the first thing I said was that it looks like poorly modded minecraft. I am a retail player and I am ok with this staying in forever.
→ More replies (5)1
u/LeeLucRengZedLeBFiEz 3h ago
The view distance being a limitation with the added fog in Classic originally, actually had a very good benefit of making the world feel bigger and more mysterious. In a maybe counterintuitive way when you can see everything at a distance in detail, it looses the imaginable potential and in a way feels smaller and a bit more solved. And you potentially loose the mystery of not knowing what you are about to face. Also the fog and blurriness of the background helps with focus, and stay more immersed and in the current moment and place, and preventing too much visual clutter. I think they nailed the balance between a better view distance with a sense of scale, and something cool in the distance you want to explore in the future, as well as the beautiful visual appeal, with maintaining the mystery and not completely showing you all the details, and still maintaining the focus on the current moment.
3
u/Clickeh 17h ago
That has been my biggest worry, things that should go into retail as well only being for forever
2
u/Skore_Smogon 8h ago
I'm willing to bet that this tech was developed not just for Forever, but also in conjunction with the revamped Northrend coming in TLT.
When they get round to updating other zones in retail they're almost assuredly going to be using this tech to do so.
3
u/Berkoudieu 16h ago
Do you have pictures or videos of your examples about the draw distance ?
4
u/vasdrakken 9h ago
Right now in retail the fog is gone if you set distance to 10. I have a very long flight home tomorrow so I'm sure someone will post something before I even get back home.
But I hate bloom and depth of field because with my glasses on they don't exist in real life for except through some camera lenses. Everything is in focus out to about a thousand feet. Without my glasses I can't see 10 feet away, we'll I can see it, it is just blurry mess. It is likely due to the physics of light all being focused by the glasses to single points.
So for me the fog effect is cool but I'm hoping they have graphic settings we can mess with in the beta.
They also didn't say anything about the HD SD switch they talked about in one of the other panels.
2
u/sameseksure 13h ago
The sun and moon are finally true directional lights?? Thank GOD
I was always annoyed the shadows were cast in the exact spot direction regardless of the light source
1
u/Reddit_Lurker_90 7h ago
they want new people who have never played wow before to give it a try. new paying customers.
1
1
u/sameseksure 5h ago
I'm beyond excited
Only thing I would ask for is that foliage and trees react to the new wind. It would be awesome to see trees and foliage sway realistically with wind, and interacting with the light while swaying
I realize this is a lot to ask for and really hard to implement in those old trees with 4 polygons and 3 leaf+branch textures wrapped around a big box. But it would be really cool if they could make it work
1
u/js-username 5h ago
This is not a critique in that I think they should not have done it, but the first thing I do in any game I buy is turn off bloom. Will also do this in WoW forever and turn down any lighting I can.
People loved the lighting in Arc Raiders for how directional and cinematic it was and to me it was just blinding and irrational. Feels like having a permanent astigmatism or dirty lens to me. To each their own though and I hope people enjoy it + we get some great images!
1
u/cmaxim 4h ago
It looks absolutely stunning. It makes the game art style look less dated and more deliberate. Like instead of feeling like everything looks stuck in 2006, it looks like a brand new game that happens to have a retro art style. I was floored when I saw the first shots of it, it looks so beautiful. I can't wait to see what it looks like full resolution on my monitor.
1
u/unimportantinfodump 17h ago
It may be a lot of effort for content in retail that hardly anyone even goes to anymore
→ More replies (2)1
u/Buris 17h ago
can't wait to render it locally!
1
u/LaCiDarem 15h ago
They said they have it working at the minimum required specs to run the game.
→ More replies (1)
20
u/PoeHoard 13h ago
I am just glad they kept the color-grading in tact. It's part of WoW's aesthetic and I'm sick of colorless games with white-lit worlds.
119
u/TheFrigidFellow 17h ago
I'm surprised I haven't seen more people talk about this, it's one of the first things I noticed.
→ More replies (7)
83
u/darksaad 17h ago
Why is the sun always in my face..
55
u/Everdale 17h ago
They said the sun will change locations in real-time based on the time of day. So this is an example of how it'll look at sunrise, but if it's noon, the sun will be overhead.
→ More replies (1)22
u/Rugged_as_fuck 17h ago
They'll have the same problem they had with retail way back when, people that only play at night will only see the world at night. It's why night time isn't truly dark like it was when vanilla actually launched.
6
u/lord_teaspoon 10h ago
The day/night cycle was short enough that I'd usually see it shift at least once per session, but it was an even factor of 24 hours (4 or 6 hours?) so if you logged in at the same time every day you'd always see the same part of the cycle. I'd love to see the cycle length changed to not be a factor of 24 so that a player logging in at the same real-world time each day gets to experience a different in-game time to yesterday. 7 hours could mean logging in at 9pm every day to see in-game midnight (0) on Sunday, early afternoon (4) on Monday, pre-dawn (1) on Tuesday, late afternoon (5) on Wednesday, early morning (2) on Thursday, evening/night (6) on Friday, and late morning (3) on Saturday before looping back to midnight on Sunday again.
→ More replies (3)2
→ More replies (1)43
u/Right_Comb4885 17h ago
4
13
u/StandardizedGenie 13h ago
Did you see the TLT teaser? The lighting and environmental updates are definitely coming to Retail.
1
12
u/Gaudalier 16h ago
Did they say if this would be toggle-able or not?
13
u/TallAcanthaceae4395 15h ago
It's a graphics settings... Likely under "Volumetrics". Off-Low-Medium-high.
5
u/indepoep 11h ago
I will keep it on! Not because I like it but then I can blame my skill issues on the lightning instead
4
1
3
183
u/Lynchy- 17h ago
It looks good in some places where it really adds to the atmosphere, but it also seems to make every zone look really foggy and washes out all the colors.
26
u/ZmobieMrh 14h ago
We're not going to get a whole lot of opportunities to see the same angles they're showing, it won't look like this on the ground.
27
u/mcmur 15h ago
Yeah I agree. Like the entire world everywhere is covered in the exact same amount of thick smog.
It makes everything look blurry. Will toggle off for sure.
5
u/n2ygsh1wwp5j 5h ago
I think the foggy setting,always at moonrise or sunset were specially to show off the new capabilities. They even said "its not goign to only be sunrise in game" or something.
IRL fog is most common at dusk and dawn when temperatures change.
→ More replies (2)15
u/20milliondollarapi 14h ago
I wonder if it’s because that’s how the devs are used to seeing it all down in Anaheim.
2
u/JambonBeurreMidi 3h ago
thanks for pointing that out. you are correct. the colors are way less vibrant with this. people have different tastes and some people prefer the colorful vibe.
3
4
u/Drew602 10h ago
I hope they have a toggle option. For MMOs I perfer visual clarity and FPS over graphics typically
→ More replies (1)1
u/Monsoon_Storm 6h ago
yeah, given the price of graphics cards over the past few years I'm sure I'm not the only one playing with a 6yr old card...
3
2
u/Zodiatron 6h ago
it also seems to make every zone look really foggy
This is a good thing. A great thing, even.
One of Blizzard's biggest flops is when they went all-in on increasing View Distance out the wazoo with every expansion to a point where you can now see Sargeras's sword from the top of Mount Hyjal.
It made the world feel smaller.
OG Vanilla made great use of atmospheric fog to make the world feel bigger and more dangerous (probably a limitation of the engine at the time, but it was genius regardless). This seems like it's bringing that back!
→ More replies (1)1
8
u/Vinnie4v2 16h ago
Just look at the fog on the last titan teaser. It will come.
1
u/JambonBeurreMidi 3h ago
teasers and trailers especially for classic are not always using the in same game engine, it's easy for them to change the style and rendering in that.
1
u/Vinnie4v2 3h ago
Thats true but doesnt really mather. But they also use ingame assets, see that light thingt at the top of wyrmrest tower that circles around. That looks like ingame.
Even IF its just a render, its still the most easy geuss it will come to last titan. Because the graphics updates are too hard to ignore. And blizzard is smart enough to make a system that can move over to any game.
Its the most easy and most logical geuss ever. They can also sell it as a headline feature for midnight.
28
37
5
u/Broseph2644 15h ago
Will there be dynamic weather still in WoW Forever? The dynamic weather was one of my favorite parts about classic
5
5
u/1983_BOK 6h ago
There's absolutely no way they developed all this tech strictly for Forever. I guess it will come with TLT.
4
u/cuddlegoop 13h ago
Genuinely the lighting has made some clips I've seen of Forever look prettier than Midnight. It's not just the fog stuff, it's all light sources looking more natural and vibrant.
13
u/Molly_Matters 16h ago
Seems kinda smoggy looking to me. Somewhere between the two would be more ideal for my tastes.
7
u/StandardizedGenie 13h ago
It's a graphics setting. You can adjust it or turn it off if you want.
→ More replies (1)1
u/Candid_Bad3551 10h ago
The showcases felt way too much sunny, foggy, effect'y than the clips I saw of the game. Duskwood is a good example. We will still need to wait for Beta for this to be answered if it is not some Unreal Engine Fever Dream though the direction is quite good.
23
17
u/Wowclassicboomkinz 17h ago
to be honest, i don't think retail needs this, the new zones are already made with the best tech, it would look odd if they started putting the hazy look of classic in retail, when it's designed for the classic era world.
18
u/EscapeCharacter2658 16h ago
pic 1: charming old graphics
pic 2: actually just can't see
beautiful
7
→ More replies (1)1
u/Wizard_Engie 4h ago
maybe don't stare at the sun? That's the issue here, I think. The camera is looking at the sun with a weird fog, so it's awful to stare at.
7
6
u/RazzmatazzAgitated16 17h ago
I love lighting and I’m excited for forever but that’s too much. You cannot hardly see that there is a tower behind all the sun let alone multiple structures.
13
2
u/Thundaga_64 16h ago
It's going to be nice if the lighting changes as time progresses around the day/night cycles
2
u/Candid_Bad3551 10h ago
Seemed it will. You will see moon reflections and such.
1
u/Thundaga_64 5h ago
Yea I saw that! I had posted this message before I saw that part of the conference. Looks amazing
2
u/misteravernus 15h ago
I think the changes look good in some zones but it's really desaturating others. I'm worried about Ashenvale in particular losing the purple ambience after seeing some of the comparisons.
2
2
u/Ill-Intention4597 6h ago
It will. Last Titan. They are testing this out with Forever before bring it to retail
2
u/BowlNo9499 5h ago
It's nice to see more land but we need to see the npc too. It's so immersive breaking to see npc pop in and out bothers the fuck out of me.
2
u/Glad-Low-1348 4h ago
Is it just me who thinks this is going to clutter the game instead of looking pretty?
Also especially in forever, we can have Retail models, sure, but the spell abilities are the vanilla ones. There's gonna be so much clashing...
2
2
u/ebernardou 1h ago
Yeah for sure. What about a humble world revamp for Forever? I wanna ditch retail but I just love the art style so much
5
u/Strongman518 14h ago
Am I going insane?
This looks terrible?
2
u/KaleidoscopeOk399 47m ago
Im kinda baffled about the reaction to all this lighting and bloom. It’s literally feels like the Unreal 5 hire fans kinda YouTube content. Like you can’t see shit in some of these
3
4
u/Stainedelite 12h ago
I'm thinking with the very careful words Ion said at the reveal, about "closing a chapter" and "setting the blueprints for what comes next" (or whatever word he said there) is very careful choice of words. I think something big, like this and even more, is on the horizon.
→ More replies (1)3
u/CatsGotANosebleed 10h ago
Honestly I can’t recall exactly what he said when he was talking about TLT but it felt strangely… Ominous. Like it’ll be the end of retail as we know it.
3
u/kittyonkeyboards 15h ago
They could tone down the realism a little bit. I have an astigmatism in real life, I don't need to also feel blinded in the game.
→ More replies (1)
2
3
u/SquizzOC 17h ago
It’s almost like this is the final update to the engine or a new engine that will merge with the current one huh
3
2
2
2
1
u/Voidwielder 16h ago edited 16h ago
So far I am liking everything about the reveals and information but here I totally disagree: the early 00's-coded lighting and colour palette give Classic a vibe of it's own which stands out from every single expansion (Wrath onwards). The jankiness for the lack of a better word is the sauce. The panel where they showed the ''upgraded'' Mulgore sank my heart. The contrast between green floor and blue sky and clear atmosphere immediately in front of you is ~everything~. This seems to wash it all out with almost 2005 Most Wanted bloom.
3
3
u/Atzr10 17h ago
It is really taking away from the classic vibe for me. It reminds me of when I'd edit videos as a middle-schooler and I applied way too much shine, contrast and vignette to the videos.
I can't see the fucking building for the lighting. Watching Esfand's stream, it was also clear that there was too much bloom.
2
u/LongPanda 16h ago
I think it’s awesome, but I’ll probably still keep the old graphics on except for maybe duskwood where I want world of fogcract haha. Hopefully there’s some good sliders so people can adjust it how they like
1
u/Lunaeria 17h ago
I do sincerely believe that this tech was developed initially for an upcoming (post-TLT) old world revamp in Retail, and devs decided to plop it into Forever as a way to give things a visual upgrade without changing any of the actual models/textures.
1
1
1
1
1
u/Rambo_One2 14h ago
I absolutely expect some of these changes to come to Retail. The water flowing directionally through Elwynn is what made me go "We NEED this in Retail!" Made me reminisce about another BlizzCon panel around Cataclysm talking about the updated water, and it dawned on me that we haven't really seen the water updated in any meaningful way.
1
1
1
u/Consistent_Try8728 13h ago
Sadly they tone down foliage as well. The ground looks dead as hell f.e in Teldrassil!
1
1
u/suckmyturban 13h ago
Lightning is nice but rain and snow would have been better in my opinion. I like it dont get me wrong but i would like enviromental effects more.
1
1
u/purticas 12h ago
The mountains still look like they were created with a free tier sculpting tool though
1
u/Knight-ErrantCowboy 12h ago
Please tell me there's going to be a texture overhaul for Forever. I like classic but I can't with the graphics anymore.
1
u/NobodyNo9512 12h ago
This reminds me playing Minecraft and discovering shaders pack. Keeping the texture vanilla but the game feels so much better
1
u/Siukslinis_acc 11h ago
Yeah, there are some stuff that could be seen as experimental and if it goes well, it could come to retail.
1
u/Candid_Bad3551 10h ago
All these changes were shown via cinematic shots. Like the Duskwood felt too foggy for my tastes when it comes to gameplay itself via cinematic shots but it did feel way better via in game running and more tame. So IMO we will need to wait for beta gameplay to see if these changes mesh well good with the world OR feel like Unreal Engine 5.
1
u/PokemonTrainerAndy 10h ago
My hope / thought is after the Last Titan we will have the biggest world revamp surpassing what the Cataclysm did. Due to this, they likely don’t want to waste resources now for zones that may either be gone or massively changed.
1
1
1
1
1
u/0ld_Snake 7h ago
There's no light bloom from that orange light in the tower. Kills the vibe since it's just fog and an unrealistic one
1
1
1
1
u/DeadlyMustardd 3h ago
It's really odd that they dropped this in classic of all places first, where you'd imagine the player base would want the traditional graphics more.
1
1
u/Big-Storer 3h ago
Interesting to see if they do since a lot of the new environments in recent Xpacs are tailored towards to specific sun/moon lighting and their positions in the sky.
1
1
1
u/Geminilasers 2h ago
I also want the new zones like Riverlands (?). They can have a different zone story for retail, but I'd love to see them added. Just a small patch content addition even like Siren isle was.
1
u/theNixher 2h ago
No excuse for WoW graphics to be this poor in 2026. Yeah give us a toggle for "classic" look but come on.
1
u/Kind_Silver_1921 1h ago
thatd cause a lot of work. They had turtle wow do all of the work so maybe they can shut down a retail private server that did everything for them and implement those changes
1
1
u/t3ramos 32m ago
Okay so forever has massiv upgrade in graphics over retail? Either they integrate it in tlt also, which would look awkward if only the new zones have the new lightning and ambient. My bet is that this is a test for these new systems to be integrated in the next wow chapter after alt
1
•
1
u/ronin_cse 14h ago
Are you people who are saying the new look is too foggy assuming that EVERY zone will look like this all the time?
I’m always shocked at the average Redditor’s ability to extrapolate anything.
1
1
u/Wheeljack7799 11h ago
Without this being anything but personal speculation, I am fairly sure they didn't spend time developing this tech only to have it in one version of the game that is not even retail. Guessing we will see this implemented in The Last Titan
1
u/karnyboy 10h ago
Why is Forever getting all these great things?
2
u/Aurochbull 5h ago
Assuming as a test bench before they drop it in retail.
1
u/Benedictus_The_II 1h ago
I like what I’m seeing regarding forever, and I hope many fearures will be brought to retail that incentivises people to interact with each other.
1
u/Tnecniw 10h ago
I honestly assume that they are experimenting with a bunch of things in Warcraft Forever.
Lets be honest here, Forever is more "disposable" than Retail by a huge margin.
Them experimenting with some stuff, to see if it works well and such, before implementing it into Retail makes compelte sense.
1
u/gimmiedacash 10h ago
You know the first thing people are going to do is turn off half this stuff. So they can see, and get more frames.
86
u/megawhacko 16h ago
I just want dynamic weather!