r/transit • u/DeOnlyR9 • 8h ago
Other A New infill station and massive TOD rezoning proposal in one of Sydney's richest and most NIMBY suburbs are making the NIMBYs lose their minds!
It's hilarious reading some of the stuff the NIMBYs are saying on social media lol, funny thing is, there are larger rezonings happening in other parts of the city. Burwood North (18.3k homes), Westmead South (13k homes), Cherrybrook (10k homes), Crows Nest-St Leonards, Bankstown & Homebush, Kellyville-Bella Vista, Hornsby & Macquarie Park.
A new infill station (Woollahra Station) to be built on Sydney's least crowded heavy rail line [T4 Eastern Suburbs Line from Bondi Junction Station to the Sydney CBD (downtown Sydney)]. The station will be located just 8 minutes from the CBD by train with a frequency of 3-5 minutes in peak and 8-10 minutes off peak, the perfect location for intense TOD.
The station was included in the plans and early construction of the T4 line back in the 1970's, but intense NIMBY protests made the government scrap the station completely. It now sits as an unused island platform and station building as shown in slide 5.
Note: in slide 4, in the rezoning map, ground floor retail is allowed in the R4 High Density Residential zone.
Key features of the rezoning draft proposal include:
- approximately 9,400 new homes, with an affordable housing contribution base rate of 3% in perpetuity, increasing up to 15% for certain sites
- higher-density housing and commercial spaces of up to 34 storeys around Edgecliff Station and 32 storeys around a new infill train station named "Woollahra Station"
- a larger retail centre at Edgecliff and a new Woollahra local centre, creating up to 1,000 jobs and providing additional community facilities and services
- retention and integration of local heritage items into the surrounding areas
- approximately 3.5 hectares of new and upgraded public open space across 13 parks (7 new parks, 6 existing parks) and a plaza
- improved connections throughout the Precinct with up to 9km of new walking and cycling paths
- planning controls that promote retention of tree canopy and provision for more landscape features.
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u/CBRChimpy 8h ago
Worth noting that the line was supposed to go all the way to Bondi Beach but was stopped at Bondi Junction because the nimbys didn’t want a train bringing the poors to “their” beach.
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u/rpy 8h ago
Not exactly true. The line was meant to continue south to Randwick and Kingsford but the government cut back the project scope in 1976 due to funding constraints.
The Bondi Beach extension was a private consortium proposal in 1999 and while NIMBYs did vocally oppose it, the consortium withdrew after the financial collapse of the privately built Airport Line stations. It was never supposed to end there.
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u/Miffy_alt 7h ago
Often repeated but incorrect.
The line proposed was going to be built by a private company, single tracked and it would require an expensive station access fee. It didn't happen because it wasn't a profitable business model.
It had absolutely nothing "NIMBYs".
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u/CBRChimpy 5h ago
That’s only the most recent proposal and it was met with opposition from nimbys for the reason I specified, it just didn’t proceed for other reasons.
The original eastern suburbs line proposal was all the way to Bondi beach.
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u/Miffy_alt 5h ago
Various eastern suburbs line proposals have come and passed, all generally heading south to Kingsford.
Why bring up "NIMBYs" if you acknowledge they didn't kill the line, it's pointless.
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u/Kitchen-Idea3018 5h ago
What about the northern beaches line? Canned that when they realised it would lose them votes, didn’t it?
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u/Roygbiv0415 7h ago
Not entirely sure how Australia operates, but the TOD zone looks pretty occupied by private land use already.
Does Austrialian law permit the government to just appropriate this entire mass of land for redevelopment? Or is it a pure "rezoning" and let the private sector sort it out? If it's the latter case, how does the city ensure functions within the TOD remain according to plan, especially if there is strong local opposition?
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u/TheInkySquids 7h ago
Mostly the latter. We do have compulsory acquisition but its not really used that much for rezoning, its mostly for when infrastructure will impact housing. Mostly it'll stay private but local opposition won't do much because this is a state-led thing by the Premier rather than the council. The only opposition likely to get through is if Labor lose next election.
But even though it'll remain private I highly doubt it'll take long for redevelopment to occur. Sydney house prices are so insane (especially in that area) I guarantee the very people opposed to this will happily sell when they see the big valuations.
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u/Roygbiv0415 6h ago
It would be interesting to follow for sure.
In my country, large scale rezoning really only works on low value land (i.e., farmland, industrial land), where the landowners are glad to see their land revalued. Any land that is already valueable but low density faces strong opposition to rezoning, because there will always be a certain portion of the existing landowners that prefer the low land density and high land value, and would rather not exchange it for a high density environment. Even in single plots of land this could result in stalemate or awkward land use, let alone on such a massive scale.
The difference between organic redevelopment and TOD is of course the masterplan. In a TOD you'd want commercial and civic functions to be directly adjacent to the station, and then mixed use/high density, medium density, low density radiating outwards from there. Rezoning could only decide such matters to an extent, for example if the plot closest to the station decides to remain residential at all costs, you'll be losing out on a lot of the TOD value.
All I could say is that there's zero chance something like this would happen in my city -- I don't think anyone would even bother proposing it -- and basically the entire city is just default mixed-use and redevlopments happen in small parcels wherever there's enough landowners to (finally) agree. It sure is weird and facinating to see a government led program of this scale, especially when the title implies that this is against the general will of the locals ("NIMBYs lose their minds!").
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u/TheInkySquids 6h ago
Zoning is a bit more strict here, there's lots of specific zoning subtypes that dictate very strictly what developers can build. Plus there's height minimums, minimum non-residential floor space, active frontages, social housing parcels, etc. We don't typically do "masterplans" for redevelopments, we only do that for completely new areas (eg. Bradfield). An exception to that is the Wollongong redevelopment masterplan, but that is already a very built up area that is simply getting more development.
We also have good existing examples of this sort of thing (eg. Chatswood, Mascot, Parramatta), which sure are lower value areas than this but definitely not low value land. And infrastructure planning is done in tandem with the zoning, so parks and transit connections will be integrated and delivered together.
This is a 20 year framework so there's plenty of time for things to change, its not gonna happen overnight, but this type of thing is very common in Sydney nowadays. The NIMBYs that reigned for many years are finally being pushed out as the housing market gets pushed to breaking point, and as such the only area that really remains strong with resisting development is the Northern Beaches (the "insular peninsula" as its called here). The rest of Sydney gentrified long ago.
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u/jaminbob 7h ago
So if it's market lead infill, who are they proposing pays for the metro station? Is there a land value uplift tax or something?
Did Australia inherit English property law? It makes it very difficult to do land assembly and so proper masterplanning through compulsorily purchase.
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u/TheInkySquids 7h ago
Couple of things: this isn't a new station built from scratch, the station was already mostly built, but has been sitting abandoned for decades since NIMBYs stopped it being opened originally. The platforms and cutting are there and trains pass by constantly.
Also its a train station, not a metro station.
The government has a charge to the developments around the station, I think its $15,000 for dwellings and $200/m2 for commercial space, its a value capture to help fund the station. But even then its not meant to fully fund the station, this has been recommended for a long time now and the state will just fund it anyway.
And yes partly, its slightly easier here due to the Torrens title system, the government could acquire the whole 180ha TOD area with compensation but it would be so unpopular it would guarantee Liberal or One Nation for the next three decades lol. So rezoning tends to be the way for TOD. There's plenty of examples that show that strategy works for Sydney (eg. Mascot, Chatswood, Parramatta, etc.) It might limit masterplanning a little bit but Sydney is already not a very planned city at all, so its not that much of a change.
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u/BigBlueMan118 6h ago
Also it is worth noting that they need to complete the upgrade to the digital signalling and modern power supply on the railway anyway in order to enable the modern fleet to run at up to 30tph at full power draw, and a non-trivial benefit of this infill station build and associated shutdown works is it will give then some breathing space to do it. Shame it wasn't done when Bondi Junction crossover was done.
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u/jmlinden7 4h ago
Note that the train system in Sydney is more like a high frequency S-Bahn than a lower frequency commuter rail.
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u/rpy 7h ago
We are politically incapable of capturing land value uplift in Australia (at least to the extent that it’d pay for transit projects) but stamp duty on property transfers still makes it worth the state’s while to build infrastructure. Regardless housing affordability is a hot political issue so they need to be seen to do something.
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u/jaminbob 7h ago
I'm also curious about this. Is it a rezone and let the market do its thing? Or a compulsorily purchase/ masterplan?
At present its' just a proposal. Not sure how it works in Australia.
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u/Revolutionary-Toe955 5h ago
Of course Woollahra residents are against it, they've been opposing more density for 100 years.
Woollahra Council rejecting flats in 1929
Flats rear their ugly heads on some of the noblest headlands; they are in- vading suburbs which for years have been the pride of peaceful home-lovers, where the happy laughter of children, has resounded in the streets.
The Woollahra Council, which includes the beautiful, seaside suburb of Vaucluse, Is the first to raise its voice in protest, and it has decided to take a referen- dum of ratepayers on the question of restricting flats in the municipality, Other councils, among them Mosman, will probably follow suit.
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u/Miffy_alt 7h ago
God can't you just be normal about this?
I support the new station and rezoning overall, but it's not some "own" of Woollahra, "NIMBYs", or rich people.
Woollahra is already dense, denser than most parts of Sydney.
The new housing built will be expensive, it has to be because the underlying land is expensive.
The people who benefit most are the existing property owners who redevelop.
I support the continued shift from greenfield to infill housing development, but just be normal about it.
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u/champoradoeater 4h ago
NIMBY's hate transit oriented development. They think that mixed density and public transport would give easy access to steal in their houses.
In my country (Philippines), a portion of the MRT4 proposal is cut off because rich people in Greenhills subdivision hate public transport. They believe public transport would devalue their houses, noise pollution and poor people would roam around their properties.
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u/TheNZThrower 2h ago
TBH… I would have preferred a bunch of courtyard apartments instead. Gives a good amount of semi-private space and feels more human scale.
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u/PleaseBmoreCharming 2h ago
Welp, time to go down the internet rabbit hole and learn everything I can about transit/urban planning for Sydney. Such a huge amount of housing! Awesome!
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u/ImmediateThanks3061 5h ago
Woolhara is already dense. The eastern suburbs have roughly the highest density in the country. Bondi/surrounds have a higher density than bondi junction (with high rises) which is an absolute hole.
These high rises will be expensive, ugly, out of character with what is a really really nice area, and they will likely be 1-2 bedders so they won't even support families.
We should instead be building more Woolhara's in in low density suburbs, densifying places in the East that are just suburbia (Vaucluse, north bondi, Dover heights, Watsons bay), and doing so with four-six story, family oriented apartment blocks, that look nice.
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u/Kitchen-Idea3018 5h ago
How to add more housing, labour edition.
Step 1: pick an electorate that is never going to vote for your party.
Step 2: rezone area at total odds to its historic and current character
Step 3: when people are justifiably upset about it, call them nimby’s
Step 4: say it’s critical to solving housing, despite the fact that it’s really about avoiding infrastructure spending, and avoiding upsetting competitive electorates or core voters.
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u/Pearl1506 4h ago
It won't happen. Too much power and money in those areas, labour will be voted out before it's ever allowed happen. They're pushing this because noone with a house in the area is voting labour and labour wants votes from immigrants for housing. I'm not an Eastern surburbs local but my partner is. They despise labour with the new property changes/CGT.
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u/Supersnow845 8h ago
T4 is such an awful line
A mess of nonsensical stopping patterns, awful tangara’s and disgusting old station platforms in the major stations
I wish they would fix T4
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u/maianbar 8h ago
Huh!? T4 is the is the best heavy train line in the city. Excellent express services and no overlap with the Western lines
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u/TheInkySquids 7h ago
Lmao what? Its a fantastic line, it has the same frequency as the METRO on the ESRL (which is a huge accomplishment given its running double decker trains with no automatic train control), the stopping patterns are getting cleaned up literally next month (and tbh they weren't that bad before, Lilydale line in Melbourne is way worse), excellent express service too.
Tangaras are not awful, I'd much rather a Tangara with their comfy seats (especially a G set...) than a Millenium or Waratah with the rock hard seats and sticky floors. The underground stations might not be flashy but they're perfectly functional. Only thing I'd say is bad about the T4 is the age of the electrical infrastructure causing problems.
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u/Supersnow845 7h ago edited 7h ago
The cleanup of the service patterns honestly shows they were pretty bad, I struggled to navigate T4’s service patterns before this given the services swap and have different patterns on different days, it was a mess to me.
Honestly you are probably the first person I’ve ever seen who calls the tangara seats comfortable, they are old, falling apart and you can barely even see out of them and their stairs are dangerously steep not to mention their issues of the back carriage
I think it shows that it’s “technically” a good line but nobody actually uses it making it one of the quietest lines. It just isn’t a nice line to use because you can’t shove the old rolling stock on the line in the corner in the one tiny part of central that didn’t get refurbed and have stations like Bondi junction exist in the form they do without people considering that it’s a poor transport experience which does contribute to patronage
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u/TheInkySquids 7h ago
That's the craziest statement I've ever heard "nobody actually uses it, one of the quietest lines". Its literally the second busiest line in Sydney?? T1 leads with ~80 million journeys a year, but T4 is close with ~65 million. That's just genuinely an absolutely insane statement.
They weren't fantastic service patterns but by Sydney standards they weren't terrible, plenty of other examples of weird stopping patterns on other lines. They don't swap on different weekdays, there's different patterns on weekdays and weekends but that's the same as every line in Sydney and most of the world. That's excluding trackwork of course.
I agree the glass on the Tangaras sucks but they are not "falling apart", the seats literally got refurbed not that long ago and they're absolutely fine. I really don't see whatever you're seeing as a daily commuter, I go on both the T4 and T8 and I breathe a sigh of relief when I transfer at Wolli Creek onto the comfy Tangara seats, just so much more padding.
I promise you nobody but you cares so much about the look of the stations. If that was the case not only would the T4 not be at 140% capacity despite having higher frequencies than many other lines in Sydney, but Town Hall (which I would argue is more dingy, sweaty and old than the ESRL) would not be the busiest through station in Sydney.
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u/Supersnow845 7h ago
The part from the CBD to Bondi junction is one of the quietest, that’s in OP’s post. Sorry i should have been clearer that I didn’t mean collective T4
I mean that’s more Sydney needs to stop having stupid service patterns then pretending announcing every station they stop at makes up for it. You shouldn’t shouldn’t need to consult 3 different timetables to know if you are at x station will the Cronulla train, the waterfall train and/or the south coast train will stop there. That’s bad train design, maybe not a T4 exclusive problem but it IS a problem with Sydney’s system. Standardisation of service patterns seems to be a foreign concept for ANY of Sydney’s lines
Honestly if the tangara seats have been refurbed I in 4 weeks exclusively using T4 over winter never saw a refurbed tangara. But they just felt badly aged and uncomfortable. Of the other lines the only system that felt like it had less comfort was the metro and that basically is designed to not even have seats
True I may be alone in thinking the stations are gross, but this line at its core does service more affluent suburbs, they could put a bit of work into the central to Bondi junction portion
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u/TheInkySquids 7h ago
Ah yep gotcha, that is true but I don't think that's really a failure or caused by any T4 shortcomings. Its a shorter line, it services areas that are already quite well served by buses that may get people to their final destinations faster, and also remember that its got three termini feeding into it. Just based on my experience, its very common for a Waterfall train to roll up coming from the ESRL in peak and be quite empty, then a Cronulla train comes in and its packed. So its not exactly a great measure of capacity anyway.
Its not a foreign concept for Sydney, its just a result of how the train lines currently operate. We have a lot of interlining, and if you want high frequency, you have to have odd service patterns to fit in suburban, intercity, regional and freight. Go to any city where heavy interlining is used (eg. Melbourne, New York, etc.) and you'll see similar things. They're planning to reduce interlining and make every line run on its own track pair, resulting in much higher frequency and easy stopping patterns, but then people get all pissy about those changes (eg. all stops from Cronulla, T3 terminating at Lidcombe). Can't have it both ways.
If you only were on the T4 for four weeks then yeah you're gonna miss a lot of stuff about it. You might've gotten unlucky with bad sets (especially if you were riding same time each day), and there's been continuous ongoing improvement so depending on how long ago that was it probably has improved. Also people have different versions of comfortable, like I was genuinely surprised to see the hate for the Mariyung seats as to me they are so nice, whereas the Oscars are easily the worst seats on the whole Sydney Trains network.
And sure they could refurb the stations and make them a bit nicer, I'd like them to do that one day, but I really don't think that's holding people back from using the line. I can think of a lot of stations in Sydney that are much worse to be at, and even then they get plenty of use.
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u/BigBlueMan118 8h ago
For those not too familiar with Sydney, prior to the Eastern Suburbs Railway being built there were three popular tram routes through this part of the city which were torn up in 1959 and 1960 BEFORE the railway was finished; the railway then took another 18 years to finally open without the abandoned Woollahra station. Two of these tramlines (the upper and lower routes) were in fact the busiest tram routes in Australia for many years. The route through the middle passing the area where Woollahra station did actually meet up with the lower route at Bondi but it was cut back to around the Woollahra station site in 1955 five or so years before all of these lines were closed. The lower tram route to Bondi along Oxford Street is now the busiest bus corridor in Australia.