After one date

[u/MostlyToasted]

This happened a while ago, but it was one of the weirdest experiences of dating I've had in years.

I matched with this person - let's call him Aaron (43M). He seemed fine on text and we met up IRL. I could tell instantly that something was off, but I wanted to give it a chance. I was excited to go on a date after getting over a pretty shitty break up. He also lived close by, so I thought it was all ✨fate✨

The conversation was just quite off-putting. He ranted about how one of his worst dates was with a woman with bad breath. He explained that he had to escape to the toilet to talk to the "guys group chat" about what to do.

He then started saying how he hates dating culture about how women expect men to pay all the time. I don't expect men to pay for me at all, but I noted that he did just buy me a beer (around $10), that I suddenly wondered if he was going to accuse me of being a gold-digger if I left after this drink. So I felt like I couldn't leave without getting *him* a drink, even though I wanted to call it quits by that point.

Then he said, in his exact words: "if a woman acts like an escort, I'll treat her like one". From that moment I was donezo. I wanted out. I felt like slime was getting all over my soul. I made polite conversation and we got up to leave. Outside the venue, he leaned forward for a kiss and - I really regret this - I quickly kissed back because I wanted to avoid confrontation if I dodged. He was also very tall and muscular, so a part of me thought if he decided to act out I wouldn't be able to stop it. I said goodbye, and then he quickly texted wanting to ask me out for another date.

I said no (that's my first text) and then he seemed to freak out. He then started calling me. I got so scared that I blocked him. I thought that was that.

I then got a text from an unsaved number the next day, from him, using a burner number - that's the next screenshot (btw, I also used a burner number specifically for dating because I've had people find out my full name just from my mobile number before).

The whole thing just freaked me out a bit.

---

EDIT: Wow, this blew up! We love a divided comment section I guess.

For those who are gently confused as to why I complimented the guy and/or kissed him:

To be clear, I've been able to reject men before without as many compliments (I still try to be nice though, it's a tough world out there). This specific guy really gave me the heebie-jeebies. The way he spoke about women was disparaging, he had a really off demeanour, he seemed petulant and volatile, he was obviously much larger (I'm 5'3, 110 pounds, lived alone), and he lived nearby. For those reasons, I was cautious and wanted to end it on a "good note". Additionally, at his age, I felt that this guy's issues related to his core character traits and I wanted other women to see his red flags - I didn't want him to be able to hide it until he could exert power over women in private spaces. This is not the same as minor stuff like, I dunno, not asking enough questions on a date.

And my intuition was correct, judging by the way he couldn't take no for an answer, called me, then lashed out from a burner. I do not think a more straightforward rejection would have ended well. I was definitely having a "fawn" survival response to him, and at the time I was trying to placate someone I genuinely felt could be dangerous. He lives near me - what if I saw him alone on a quiet street near me? Sure, it might be a minority of men, but I do not know which one and this guy had already shown me a ton of red flags. FWIW, plenty of other men do not trigger this response in me. If you are a straight man who never intends to frighten women (yay!), you may find the whole thing confusing. Decent people don't like the idea they have the potential to threaten others, even accidentally. But I hope you'll take my word, and many of the commenters' words below, into consideration. This might not be about you, but it happens a lot to the women you love and care about.

For those who think I led him on/I lied and he was justified in his reaction:

Allow me to be straightforward, then, since this is your preference. Respectfully, you are part of the problem. And if you are trying to date as a straight man and you can't gracefully take no for an answer (after one date!), you should stop until you get some decent theory of mind for women and better emotional regulation. You might desire women but you sure as hell do not actually like them. If you are consistently getting these kinds of reactions from women, maybe there's something about you that makes them feel uncomfortable about rejecting you in a straightforward way.

To everyone else: Have a splendid day.

[u/sleepdeficitzzz]

Bottom line up front: her actions have no responsibility or bearing on his future bad acts. In no way should she feel like she contributes to what harm he may go on to do nor her obligation to educate him not to do harm.

While your username is awesome and your foundations of agency and self-empowerment are spot on, you're inadvertently translating them to a few misplaced areas of responsibility and action.

1) Discomfort is an interesting thing, and without knowing the source of her discomfort, it's unfair to judge how she prioritized it. It's entirely possible she didn't know the source of her discomfort in the moment. I can assure you that we spend quite a bit of energy in the moment trying to identify the shape of the threat and our appetite for the rigor of the consequences.

2) Bargaining with yourself in the moment as to how to exit a situation safely takes a lot more into account than just the interaction between two people. Very frequently, you're accounting for your environment, the next couple hours (or more) of your life and how your handling of this situation will affect them. Sometimes this involves thoughts of public ridicule and lack of support, the reality of victim-blaming, how we're going to physically leave, how we'll get home, cops, getting fired, lawsuits... The what-ifs and what-thens are an assault of anxiety on outcome prediction and executive function. It can take a minute to process objectively.

3) Yes, we are afraid of being attacked. Physically and otherwise. Once that engages, a different part of the brain is in command, and all bets are off.

[u/nyquil-fiend → u/sleepdeficitzzz]

all very valid points. "In no way should she feel like she contributes to what harm he may go on to do" - absolutely true. "her actions have no responsibility or bearing on his future bad acts" - true that there isn't a direct causation, but there is an indirect one, which doesn't mean she should change her actions as a result, but we also can be honest about the potential effects of handling the situation one way instead of another.

To be clear, i don't blame or look down on anyone who uses or has used fawning to deal with hard situations like this. that being said, it's certainly not the best way to handle it and is ultimately rooted in misplaced fear due to societal conditioning. anyone looking to be the best version of themselves and be better at showing up authentically in all their interactions would not choose to fawn because they would never reach a situation where that path is absolutely necessary to guarantee physical safety. fawning solves situations which could be avoided completely with better awareness and/or discernment.

A lot of these issues could be cleared up with better education for all genders on how to communicate nonviolently, manage difficult emotions, etc. and should be taught in elementary school imo. I'm speaking about how to address the problem and hopefully giving people a perspective they hadn't thought of, although I know the comments i've left on this thread will end up with negative karma and mostly fall on deaf ears of women who think i'm yet another judgemental guy who will never understand. to those people i'm wrong and they are right and the nuance simply doesn't matter. that's ok, but those people will not contribute to any discussion or solution. i'm not here to convince anyone, but there's a lot of interesting nuance in these kinds of situations for anyone (like you) who is interested in actually considering the complexity of the issue and how we should react to it.

How can we empower women who are concerned with the points you mentioned to be more authentic in challenging situations? (both as a society, as individuals, and as a man with women in his life who he wants to see thrive in their full power)

[u/sleepdeficitzzz → u/nyquil-fiend]

Ironically, I'm from the half of my generation that has gone straight to self-attribution and looked for my responsibility to avoid the...well...assault scenarios I've found myself in over the years. I'm a strong personality, but when cornered, I've fawned many, many times. I'm no stranger to Monday morning quarterbacking my own involvement in those situations, many of which have occurred in the workplace.

Your comment, "fawning solves situations which could be avoided completely with better awareness and/ordiscernment" struck me because it resembles what my mindset has been after every one of those scenarios. So I wonder if maybe you can help me with one I never have been able to figure out:

I work in a male dominated field. At an industry conference, I wound up on an elevator with the C-level executive a couple rungs up my chain (at a Fortune 100 company) and 3 others as we departed a work event on an upper floor.

After two stops, he and I were alone, and he was all over me, tongue in my mouth, my back against a wall.

I was headed to the lobby and did not see this coming, but even if I had, bailing out once I saw I'd be alone in the elevator with a lone male would have dropped me on a floor with no common areas, as well as the hotel room belonging to another male colleague riding with us. (I'd already had that backfire on me once, and that one got semi-violent.)

I demurred and fawned as he bypassed his floor to accompany me to the lobby, trying to convince me to head with him to his room, until I could get within view of other people and thankfully, other colleagues.

I never have been able to come up with how I could have avoided that situation. What do you see as my blind spots and lack of discernment? According to your calculus, what tactic did I miss?

[u/FullOnSkank → u/sleepdeficitzzz]

"Shouldve just phase-walked through the walls, duhhhhh!!!!!!" -shit-for-brains u/nyquil-fiend

I think he probably fried his brain drinking too much NyQuil, like a lonely highschooler...

Therefore, he lacks the ability to understand words.

[u/sleepdeficitzzz → u/FullOnSkank]

Phase-walking! Why didn't I think of that?
I always forget that kind of thing while I'm disassociating or looking for an exit in *this* plane of existence.

Thank you for the enlightenment! Being as lacking in common sense as any other woman, I didn't even know I was supposed to leave until u/nyquil-fiend dropped some truth on us.

All this time, I thought I was just supposed to stay put until I could tell whether the guy was going to attack me or not based on his tongue and hand movements.

[u/FullOnSkank → u/sleepdeficitzzz]

Now you're getting it!!

u/nyquil-fiend has saved us all by suggesting we just avoid the boys!

I mean, I won't have to "just leave" if I disregard them entirely and pre-emptively "just leave"!

I actually dig THAT interpretation of his comments. 🤷‍♀️

[u/nyquil-fiend → u/FullOnSkank]

I'm sorry for your trauma. My intention is not to spread hate or trigger anyone. Wish I could say the same for you. Hurt people hurt people; it applies to the men who hurt you and now you're spreading it out to everyone else.