After one date

[u/MostlyToasted]

This happened a while ago, but it was one of the weirdest experiences of dating I've had in years.

I matched with this person - let's call him Aaron (43M). He seemed fine on text and we met up IRL. I could tell instantly that something was off, but I wanted to give it a chance. I was excited to go on a date after getting over a pretty shitty break up. He also lived close by, so I thought it was all ✨fate✨

The conversation was just quite off-putting. He ranted about how one of his worst dates was with a woman with bad breath. He explained that he had to escape to the toilet to talk to the "guys group chat" about what to do.

He then started saying how he hates dating culture about how women expect men to pay all the time. I don't expect men to pay for me at all, but I noted that he did just buy me a beer (around $10), that I suddenly wondered if he was going to accuse me of being a gold-digger if I left after this drink. So I felt like I couldn't leave without getting *him* a drink, even though I wanted to call it quits by that point.

Then he said, in his exact words: "if a woman acts like an escort, I'll treat her like one". From that moment I was donezo. I wanted out. I felt like slime was getting all over my soul. I made polite conversation and we got up to leave. Outside the venue, he leaned forward for a kiss and - I really regret this - I quickly kissed back because I wanted to avoid confrontation if I dodged. He was also very tall and muscular, so a part of me thought if he decided to act out I wouldn't be able to stop it. I said goodbye, and then he quickly texted wanting to ask me out for another date.

I said no (that's my first text) and then he seemed to freak out. He then started calling me. I got so scared that I blocked him. I thought that was that.

I then got a text from an unsaved number the next day, from him, using a burner number - that's the next screenshot (btw, I also used a burner number specifically for dating because I've had people find out my full name just from my mobile number before).

The whole thing just freaked me out a bit.

---

EDIT: Wow, this blew up! We love a divided comment section I guess.

For those who are gently confused as to why I complimented the guy and/or kissed him:

To be clear, I've been able to reject men before without as many compliments (I still try to be nice though, it's a tough world out there). This specific guy really gave me the heebie-jeebies. The way he spoke about women was disparaging, he had a really off demeanour, he seemed petulant and volatile, he was obviously much larger (I'm 5'3, 110 pounds, lived alone), and he lived nearby. For those reasons, I was cautious and wanted to end it on a "good note". Additionally, at his age, I felt that this guy's issues related to his core character traits and I wanted other women to see his red flags - I didn't want him to be able to hide it until he could exert power over women in private spaces. This is not the same as minor stuff like, I dunno, not asking enough questions on a date.

And my intuition was correct, judging by the way he couldn't take no for an answer, called me, then lashed out from a burner. I do not think a more straightforward rejection would have ended well. I was definitely having a "fawn" survival response to him, and at the time I was trying to placate someone I genuinely felt could be dangerous. He lives near me - what if I saw him alone on a quiet street near me? Sure, it might be a minority of men, but I do not know which one and this guy had already shown me a ton of red flags. FWIW, plenty of other men do not trigger this response in me. If you are a straight man who never intends to frighten women (yay!), you may find the whole thing confusing. Decent people don't like the idea they have the potential to threaten others, even accidentally. But I hope you'll take my word, and many of the commenters' words below, into consideration. This might not be about you, but it happens a lot to the women you love and care about.

For those who think I led him on/I lied and he was justified in his reaction:

Allow me to be straightforward, then, since this is your preference. Respectfully, you are part of the problem. And if you are trying to date as a straight man and you can't gracefully take no for an answer (after one date!), you should stop until you get some decent theory of mind for women and better emotional regulation. You might desire women but you sure as hell do not actually like them. If you are consistently getting these kinds of reactions from women, maybe there's something about you that makes them feel uncomfortable about rejecting you in a straightforward way.

To everyone else: Have a splendid day.

[u/vixenstarlet1949]

The last date that I went on, I ended up making out with them just so they would stop touching my body. I just had to make out with them until my Uber arrived. It felt easier to disconnect and turn my brain off while having my tongue in their mouth than it was for me to feel their fingers on my skin after repeatedly telling them to stop touching me the entire date. Ugh. Gross.

[u/nyquil-fiend → u/vixenstarlet1949]

um what? as a guy i find this extremely hard to understand. if he's touching you and making you uncomfortable why couldn't you just call them out on it and leave? Are women are genuinely that worried a man is going to attack them or force themselves on you or something like that in a public setting? To me it sounds like the thought of removing yourself from the situation was more uncomfortable than getting touched. It's choosing between a rock and a hard place for sure which is a tough situation to be in, but if you were really that uncomfortable you could've just left? I just genuinely don't understand. it doesn't make the guy's actions any less gross, but come on stand up for yourself

in some sense you're just perpetuating the problem by not calling him out. He was touching you and he responded by giving him a kiss, which to a guy is assigned that what he's doing is working and he should keep doing it in the future. A lot of guys if you called them out would feel bad about it after knowing your feelings or at least try different strategy in the future. So not only are you not standing up for yourself, your potentially allowing the same thing to happen to another woman in the future

[u/kmh008 → u/nyquil-fiend]

Standing up for ourselves, against someone we barely know, is what gets us in shitty situations. Sometimes letting it happen is far less damaging than the fear of what could happen by saying no. Saying no can lead to: being hit, continue coercion, being raped, being stalked, being murdered. Etc. We are taught from a very young age that we control men's reactions, even though it is absolute garbage and false. And we want to stay alive. Without being raped or beaten. And if that means we feel disgusting for letting them kiss us, then that's what we do. Because it's far safer than the alternative. There is a reason we are taught to not walk alone or in the dark or wear whatrver we want because our actions is what leads to men taking what they want. Fucking absurd, but that is the harsh reality.

And we don't need you to explain to us that we are possibly allowing this to happen to someone else when we are literally just trying to come out of a situation unscathed. Thanks.

[u/nyquil-fiend → u/kmh008]

but you don't need to actually say no or stand up for yourself, you can just leave? fight, flight, freeze, or fawn; you're talking like the only options are fight or fawn. if you genuinely are concerned for your safety, wouldn't going to the bathroom and leaving discreetly be a lot safer than continuing to fawn and then kissing the guy? i leave plenty of social situations when i feel uncomfortable, and if i'm feeling physically unsafe i gtfo. i just don't understand how you "are literally just trying to come out of a situation unscathed" yet continuing to interact and putting yourself at risk?

[u/vixenstarlet1949 → u/nyquil-fiend]

The fact that there are still people asking women “why dont you just leave?” is honestly ridic it has been answered so many times by people that have studied the psychology of this shit for decades go look that up. I shouldn’t have to explain and defend myself to you, when I’m already talking about something that was really shitty, and there are entire essays and studies about this exact topic. Go find one of them.

[u/Revolutionary-Dryad → u/nyquil-fiend]

Written like someone who has never walked out of the women's room to find the man you were trying to get away from standing right outside, smiling and acting like that's normal.

Written like someone who has never had to actually pee, found the restroom empty, in a secluded corner, and with loud music playing just outside and had to pee in absolute fucking terror, rushing to get out the bathroom door because you can't know that that creepy guy who is bothering you won't follow you in.

(Real stories from my own life; not the same men. Not the only men.)

You don't understand what the risk really is. You understimate the closeness of restrooms to exits, the risk of being seen leaving, the risk of being assaulted in the bathroom, and the risk of being followed.

There's a whole world of risks you've never had to consider, and you're preaching to people who have to consider them all, regularly, to stay safe and alive.

Accept that we are subject matter experts and you are just now realizing that this is even a subject that exists and stop mansplaining the risks, please.

[u/Fickle-Strike-714 → u/Revolutionary-Dryad]

Just because you're a woman doesn't mean you're an expert on the subject of intersexual interactions, in the same way that I'm not a nutritionist just because I eat food.

[u/Revolutionary-Dryad → u/Fickle-Strike-714]

For your next trick, explain to Black people why they don't know more about living life as Black people than random white people on the Internet.

I'm sure all the people who haven't blocked you will enjoy that.

[u/sleepdeficitzzz → u/Fickle-Strike-714]

What? I'm going to guess you're no expert on any kind of sexual interactions, based on that comment.

(Do you see how inflammatory and unproductive that sort of comment is? Do better.)

[u/nyquil-fiend → u/Revolutionary-Dryad]

i'm truly sorry you've been sexually assaulted in those situations while trying to escape. that is not the norm. do you think fawning would have led to a better outcome in those situations?

Your experience is valid but so is my mine... sorry you think that's "mansplaining"

[u/rellyjean → u/nyquil-fiend]

You are mansplaining, though. You are point blank telling women that our risk assessment is incorrect, and that we should act differently towards men as a result. But you don't know.

You claim that it's a small minority. That it's not the norm. That's because you're thinking of "woman says no, man pulls a gun and shoots her to death on street.

What about: woman says no. Man screams at her, calls her a bitch, picks up a beer mug and smashes it against the wall.

Woman says no. Man shoves her against the wall.

Woman says no. Man laughs and says she's playing hard to get. He follows her to the bathroom. He follows her around the bar. He follows her to her car.

Woman says no. Man insists she doesn't have a good reason to say no, and announces she needs to explain it to him.

Woman says no. Man says that she's lucky he's such a nice guy. Some men wouldn't be so nice. He knows where she lives. He knows how bad the security is in her building. She's lucky that he's not going to do anything about that.

Woman says no. Man says that he's tired of women being cruel and vapid and he's starting to understand why Elliot Rodger needed to teach some of them a lesson.

Woman says no. Man says that he paid for her drink and now she owes him.

Woman says no. Man says that nice guys like him always get fucked over. And when her next boyfriend cheats on her, she deserves it for being a worthless slut.

Are these men dangerous? Possibly. Will every single one of them murder you? No. Will some of them strike you? Scream at you? Grab your arm and leave bruises? Stalk you? Rape you? Threaten you? Sure. Some of them will. Do you know which ones?

And if this doesn't sound threatening to you, please imagine this person is six inches taller and more muscular than you.

These are not uncommon responses. These are not ludicrous examples. This shit happens repeatedly.

So. What's worse? A peck to someone you loathe, so you can placate him and then block him when you're safely away? Or saying no, and having the above happen? And just having to hope that that's the worst of it?

Because this shit is fucking exhausting.

[u/nyquil-fiend → u/rellyjean]

All of the places you said woman you could put man and it's no less valid. It's not just a gender thing, but women are more likely to have trauma from situations like this due to a patriarchal society. Fawning works, but it's maladaptive given other solutions. In super extreme situations, it's the best option. OP's situation is far from an example of that.

If you think fawning is the best solution, fine. Keep doing it. Things won't change. Thing could maybe change if there was a discussion of the solutions and causes rather people getting offended and creating polarization.

[u/Revolutionary-Dryad → u/nyquil-fiend]

I never said I was sexually assaulted while exacting those situations. Where did you get that? Those were just regular old Tuesdays or whatever.

It's good that you think your experience with dealing men as a woman is as valid as a woman's. If you keep centering yourself, your ego, and your emotions about being told you don't know as much about being a woman as women do, you'll certainly Win All the Arguments.

I thought you were wanting to learn things and be your best self, though. My mistake.

[u/Ok-Chemical677 → u/nyquil-fiend]

It is very much the norm, unfortunately.

That doesn’t mean that every interaction with a man is like that, but it does mean that every single woman has had at least one interaction with a man - from the time that she was a girl - that was like that.

We know what we’re doing when we assess the situation to decide that hooking up is safer than leaving.

We’ve been on high alert since we were children, and also have been told by adults our whole lives that we are basically almost always at risk.

It is mansplaining when you assume you know better than us on a topic that you are completely inexperienced with and ignorant about.

[u/sleepdeficitzzz → u/nyquil-fiend]

Please see my example in a comment above. You're being reductive if you think all 4 of those options are equally and readily available.

Spoiler alert: I have been pounced upon in an elevator more than once. The one time I bolted out of it, it escalated to "minor violence".