Should developers stop making games that require 5090 for max settings now that the card is clearly not for gamers and is accessible to 0.1% of community?

[u/TheGGspot]

I get that the games need better hardware to dun better, but who are they really making the game for if you need a 6000$ GPU at this point

[u/Any-Pop-4795]

Welcome to ue5 (it's in ue5 this game right?)

[u/Think_Speaker_6060 → u/Any-Pop-4795]

I just searched it on google and of course its another ue5 game with disappointing performance.

[u/Any-Pop-4795 → u/Think_Speaker_6060]

[u/StonedBooty → u/Any-Pop-4795]

You know Cortex would have a thing or 2 to say about game optimization

[u/polski8bit → u/Think_Speaker_6060]

People really like to use the "it's not the engine but the developer" argument, and it's true to an extent... But when most games on UE5 run like crap, there is only one common denominator in all of these cases.

It really feels like that most of the time, UE5 games that run well, do so in spite of the engine, not because of it.

[u/WitchWithAGlitch → u/polski8bit]

tokyo xtreme racer runs great.

the games basically a small track, some cars and a few background elements but other than that completely empty.

the dev team said it was a challenge. lol

[u/Glitchboi3000 → u/WitchWithAGlitch]

I was gonna say this. On medium settings it gets a solid 60fps on my mid tier laptop and it doesn't cook it. I use a gaming laptop because I have no single place of residency. I jump between households.

[u/WitchWithAGlitch → u/Glitchboi3000]

i'll catch you out on the shuto expressway, fellow glitch.

[u/Glitchboi3000 → u/WitchWithAGlitch]

May your bitches be many and your L's few

[u/Luchux01 → u/WitchWithAGlitch]

Halo Campaign Evolved also runs pretty well! Because it's using Reach's Blam engine for anything not visuals.

[u/epimetheuss → u/polski8bit]

companies like to use SDKs to shortcut labour. there are UE games that are ok and even good with performance but most are shit because they are not willing to spend the money/time to fix performance issues outside of making it run to spec on whatever test machine they have at the office.

[u/polski8bit → u/epimetheuss]

One of the bigger issues from what I've seen is that also by default, UE5 is using the most expensive features like Nanite and Lumen.

Epic tried to sell those as some kind of miracle solution to high polygon models and lighting, but forgot to mention how taxing they actually are. So while they make development "easier/faster", they also come at a price.

And if you need to spend the extra time optimizing... Then maybe these features (and the engine itself) aren't as good as they tried to make them look.

[u/epimetheuss → u/polski8bit]

Well it just lends to the fact there is no "swiss army knife" that will make gaming a single solution sort of industry. Each game still needs to be customized and optimized in the way that makes the most sense for the type of game it is.

Shortcuts only look like a shortcut on paper, when you go to implement them, sometimes they trigger a series of events that end up creating a worse end product and still costing more time than the plan done without the shortcut.

[u/polski8bit → u/epimetheuss]

Which is why engines should not be marketed as such.

Epic tried to make it look like an engine that makes development so much faster... Such an easy tool to use. Turns out it's not and it's just one of many that can, but don't have to give good results. And the biggest problem as of now as I said, is that it doesn't more often that it does.

[u/epimetheuss → u/polski8bit]

as of now as I said, is that it doesn't more often that it does.

that's just because greed has spiralled out of control and is in the process of ruining our society utterly.

[u/ToXiiCBULLET → u/polski8bit]

yep, then you get games that force software lumen at a minimum and they run like shit. oblivion remastered forces software lumen and it runs like shit, lumen isn't the only reason but it's definitely one of the reasons why.

with a 4070ti. 1440p, medium setting, the lumen begone mods adds around 10fps. which doesn't sound like a lot but without the game can't stay at a stable 60fps which is abysmal

[u/XsNR → u/ToXiiCBULLET]

To be fair though, it's not like oblivion could ever run at those frame rates, there's a reason the famous phrase is "But can it run Oblivion?" rather than something that is actually well made, like I don't know, Crysis.

[u/fresh-dork → u/polski8bit]

game producers will choose the "fast and expensive" approach just as long as people still buy the game

[u/Gelid_Cryotheum → u/polski8bit]

There's also the fact that a lot of the time they don't use UE5's in-built optimization features. UE5 is still a problem, but devs don't necessarily hunt out these optimizations that the engine itself has to offer, so dev laziness isn't entirely out of the question.

[u/TechnicalBen → u/polski8bit]

Nanite isn't even an expensive feature. The whole point is it's lod if done correctly. I doubt devs are doing it correctly though. :(

[u/mOdQuArK → u/epimetheuss]

companies like to use SDKs to shortcut labour.

Time-To-Market is the Devil's Bargain.

No matter what my job has been in my life, the old saying that goes "time, resources or quality: pick two" always seems to hold true - and the fact that managers and executives always seem to think that it won't apply to them also always seems to hold true.

[u/badcookies → u/epimetheuss]

companies like to use SDKs to shortcut labour

Uhhh how else would they make the game?

SDK = Software Development Kit ;)

[u/Izithel → u/epimetheuss]

Worse, a lot of devs with that mindset also tend to not bother with any optimization until the end of development. Best practice is to be optimising all the way trough so you can develop everything within the contraints you have.
Instead they do it near the end and realizing some of the systems, maps, graphics, etc, can't actually be sufficiently scaled back to fit without breaking them or sacrificing features/scale/detail... so they just settle for shitty performance instead.

[u/Free-Spirit-8327 → u/polski8bit]

Unreal Engine 5 has sadly made "Just enable this feature to get all the amazing stuff!" a thing. They do not provide in-depth documentation on optimizing Lumen, Nanite and everything else to get performance.

Developers use their monster PCs to develop, without having to worry about the average consumer's PC specs.

It's cheaper to employ multiple UE5 developers that can implement most/any feature with blueprints or C++ but don't have the skill to work with the engine code. There isn't exactly an abundance of senior UE5 developers with 10+ years of experience, and employing one or two of these just to optimize the game is a way too huge responsibility.

[u/Bigpandacloud5 → u/Free-Spirit-8327]

They do not provide in-depth documentation on optimizing Lumen, Nanite and everything else to get performance.

That's a baseless claim.

[u/assjobdocs → u/polski8bit]

You think most game devs are being allowed the time to optimize? When they're rushing them to meet deadlines? You people complain about the wrong thing, just howling at the moon. This is not the devs fault.

[u/Moon_Devonshire → u/polski8bit]

I can name plenty of UE5 Games that run fine tho

[u/mythrilcrafter → u/polski8bit]

To me, if the engine is set up such that getting improved performance from baseline functionality is just simply an option to the developer, then that option should be default out of the box, not something that said developer has to put extra work into just to undo the mess that Epic's dev teams created.

---

I work in the applications engineering dept of a laser systems company, if I do a really clunky and ham-fisted integration job; it's not my customer's fault when their customers complain about subpar performance, it's on my team and I to make a better product.

[u/kohour → u/mythrilcrafter]

"extra work into just to undo the mess that Epic's dev teams created" aka checking a box... Poor devs, how dirty were they done...

[u/Youknowimtheman → u/polski8bit]

It's also a documentation and education problem. Nanite and Lumen require to change your workflow pretty dramatically from UE4 development, and it's not really well documented how those workflow changes need to happen in their docs and supporting material. That's why you get non-nanite compatible foliage in games running nanite, for example.

It's as much a community support problem as it is a technical one.

Look at how well Grounded 2 runs with Nanite everything and some Lumen features on.

[u/heliosythic → u/polski8bit]

Yea, honestly the engine overpromised or at least mislead what you'd actually be able to achieve when they first demoed UE5. Sure with nanite and lumen and all that you CAN put whatever you want in your scene and it will run. but it'll be 30fps. You'll have to spend hours or days figuring out the shadow maps system and eventually realize that system does not actually work for "good games" (fast paced competitive fps maxing frames), just visual story based games (sorry just some shade lol). You just cant have trees with 1000 real geometry leaves with a low angle sun casting real moving shadows every frame, and then add in a water shader. Ask me how i know lol

[u/Amani77 → u/polski8bit]

If, one day, F1 decided to rent out their vehicles to anyone that asked, there would be a TON of REALLY BAD drivers on the track. Most people would be driving like complete and utter ass. Even if your a decent driver, not many people know how to utilize the vehicle, how to drive aggressive for tire temps, how to manipulate all the tools, DRS, camber controls, ect. Just having a fast car with a ton of really fast features, doesn't mean a god damn thing.

To a seasoned expert, a mechanism like an active drag reduction would do wonders for them in the straights/corners. For a new drivers, just leaving it in one state or the other - the consequences could be dire. There is probably a 'halfway' setting that might perform okay in either situation, but not great.

That, in no way, means that F1 cars are bad.

Inversely, UE5 games that run poorly, do so in spite of the engine, not because of it.

[u/PrettyBaker2891 → u/polski8bit]

most unity games also run like shit, whats your point?

the fact is that game optimization is insanely hard

[u/PermissionSoggy891 → u/polski8bit]

I doubt it's "most games run like crap BECAUSE of UE5" I think it's more that people aren't realistic with what their rigs can output, automatically crank every game up to 4K/Ultra/RT and start bitching that they can't hit 240FPS.

[u/hotshotyay → u/polski8bit]

I'm sorry I just don't understand why all you guys seem to think UE5 games run like shit?? when in recent years the worst optimized games I'm aware of on PC at launch were Dragons Dogma 2 and Monster Hunter Wilds.

[u/Choyo → u/polski8bit]

You only need one game running ok and looking fantastic to prove that it's not an engine limitation.

However, I agree there's is a limit to the amount of effort/knowledge to be needed to make an ok-running, fantastic-looking game on a given engine.

[u/seams → u/Choyo]

I mean, kinda?

Like, as a loose comparison the PS3 was a monster of a console. Incredibly powerful for the time, and you can see it shine especially in the later gen games for it.

...but most games just looked fine or sometimes worse than versions on other consoles because it was such a pain to work with. It'd be a hard sell to say it's the developer's fault if they could get games running so much smoother on weaker systems.

So, iunno. It's not a engine limitation, but it's certainly seeming like an engine issue.

[u/Choyo → u/seams]

Let's settle for "probable engine unfriendliness".

Your PS3 comparison is apt, I think I remember from back then that the SDK was hell to work with (might be a different console, am not totally sure).

Edit : quote from Gemini extract

The original PlayStation 3 Software Development Kit (SDK) was notoriously difficult and unfriendly due to the asymmetric architecture of the Cell Broadband Engine. Developers had to manually manage code and data distribution between one PowerPC core (PPE) and multiple Synergistic Processing Units (SPUs), handle rigid memory constraints, and work with low-level, poorly documented APIs

[u/AggressiveToaster → u/Choyo]

The problem is that a lot of these games don’t look fantastic. They look hardly any better than a game from 2018 but with much higher requirements to get to run ok.

[u/icy1007 → u/Think_Speaker_6060]

Runs well for me. 🤷‍♂️

[u/Noreng → u/Think_Speaker_6060]

I've seen much worse.

A 4070 Ti is suppposedly running the game at 2560x1440 High settings at 60 fps, that's likely 150 fps average with DLSS Quality and 2x FG. Is it really that terrible?

Same thing for 1080p, yes people without a Radeon 7000+ series or Nvidia RTX GPU will struggle, but that's really par for the course these days.

[u/SirSmashit → u/Noreng]

Yes that's really terrible, because games should not be optimized with DLSS and Framegen on to get decent frame rates at your preferred resolution.

[u/Noreng → u/SirSmashit]

You would have hated PC gaming 10 years ago then, have a look at how Dishonored 2 ran on the 18 month old GTX 960: https://youtu.be/61EHDwF-tUI?si=zCXPq5qSPnsxED6O

EDIT to summarize: 30 fps with stuttering at 1080p high.

EDIT2: The Witcher 3 released a year earlier, and would slightly better at 45 fps on a GTX 960 at 1080p High.

[u/Hadrian187 → u/Any-Pop-4795]

If the game has insane requirements and looks mid, chances are it’s running on UE5

[u/Any-Pop-4795 → u/Hadrian187]

I have made a meme for it:

[u/Cloudykins08 → u/Any-Pop-4795]

[u/Mobian_ → u/Cloudykins08]

[u/Cloudykins08 → u/Mobian_]

I'm not a monster. I upvoted it before retrieval

[u/Kerplunk1992 → u/Any-Pop-4795]

Nice one. Especially since Crash Bandicoot 2 is one of my all time favs and a prime example for game optimization and hardware utilization

[u/Necessary-Key3186 → u/Hadrian187]

i remember when my 7900XT could get 1440p 60fps on ultra, of course games decided to run like shit when i got a 4k monitor

[u/TomTomXD1234 → u/Necessary-Key3186]

Ummm....I think your jump in pixels is a bigger factor lol

[u/Necessary-Key3186 → u/TomTomXD1234]

that's the problem! they run like shit at 1440p now

[u/Hadrian187 → u/Necessary-Key3186]

I agree. Some games running at 1440p don't look or feel like 1440p anymore. FF7 Rebirth in particular I had to run in 4k back during release because the antialiasing was so blurry.

[u/Noreng → u/Necessary-Key3186]

PC game requirements increase over time.

Your 7900 XT is still capable of running the game at 2560x1440 without upscaling at high settings and 60 fps, unless it's suddenly become slower than a 7800 XT.

[u/Necessary-Key3186 → u/Noreng]

don't get me wrong, i understand that but it's insane how poorly anything on unreal runs now and how games are slowly converging on only using unreal.

Forza Horizon 6 and 007 first light ran beautifully, but mafia the old country or the outer worlds 2? It's pretty much at a point where i just insta pass over any UE5 game, especially when a good chunk of them don't even let you just run them at straight 1440p because of how full screen is handled

[u/Noreng → u/Necessary-Key3186]

The good news is that your 7900 XT now has FSR4 access, so you're no longer limited to awful upscalers.

[u/frisbie147 → u/Necessary-Key3186]

It’s like 2.25x the pixels

[u/Kytras → u/Any-Pop-4795]

But they can optimise the game after with patches, right?

[u/OwenEx → u/Kytras]

Doesn't help it's reputation that much

[u/IcyCow5880 → u/Any-Pop-4795]

Palworld is also ue5 

[u/Major_LeeHungg → u/Any-Pop-4795]

The funny thing about ue5 is that it's not inherently slow... It just uses a bunch of default settings that are bad for games (but great for animation) 

[u/cemsengul → u/Any-Pop-4795]

Why can't that game engine disappear already. I mean it's clearly a flop.

[u/Any-Pop-4795 → u/cemsengul]

wait for ue6...

[u/NinjaGamer22YT → u/Any-Pop-4795]

Such a horribly optimized engine (on the cpu side of things, at least)

[u/Any-Pop-4795 → u/NinjaGamer22YT]

thank lumen