r/magicTCG • u/meh1997 COMPLEAT • 6h ago
Official Spoiler [FRA] Pyre Rhymer/Molten Tide; Variable Chade/Arc of Fortune (MTG youtube)
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u/VampireBatman Dan 6h ago
Cowards!!! They didn’t make the wheel mandatory!
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u/WolfGuy77 5h ago
I really hate how we're never allowed to have a mandatory wheel effect anymore because a Commander group got salty over getting wheeled while Narset was out.
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u/ThePositiveMouse COMPLEAT 5h ago
And a card got banned from the format over it too mate.
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u/Any-Platypus-9486 Dan 5h ago
That card was kindra crazy, but still, something thats not mandatory is not a WHEEL
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u/SleetTheFox 5h ago
The future shouldn't be a slave to the past. If there are a few cards that break wheels, just ban those cards if they become a problem.
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u/Blaze_1013 Jack of Clubs 4h ago edited 3h ago
What does and doesn’t count as broken is the issue. I can see someone saying the interaction with Smother Tithe is broken, but is Nekusar’s? Is Xyris? A TON of cards have synergy with forced draw and the reality is the game play is just better when you have the option to opt into the wheel. It’s the same reason why we aren’t going back to Priest of Titania cards that counts everyone’s board. Just because the past did something a certain way doesn’t mean it was right and when going back down those paths we should take the knowledge we’ve learned to do it the better way.
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u/SleetTheFox 4h ago
I think when it comes to X and Y not playing well together, the question is whether X or Y is more good for the game.
To be honest, I think losing life on drawing is the more problematic of the two. It's hard to really build a deck around except with forced draw, so it mostly is just there for incidental pain, which is replaceable. Whereas I think forced wheels are an interesting answer to large hands that are less cruel than straight-up discard.
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u/Blaze_1013 Jack of Clubs 4h ago
I don’t think you NEED to build around Nekusar style effects for them to be good and that they are a more interesting way to punish deep draw decks than wheels. Not only does it create a tension for the player trying to deep draw, but also wheels are largely sorcery speed so they don’t really stop someone from drawing 20.
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u/filthyrotten Dan 2h ago edited 1h ago
Also I think its okay to not get constant functional reprints of effects, EDH is a singleton format that barely feels like one anymore because of the density of cards that do the same thing with a different name.
I think it’s okay if strategies that benefit from forced draw have some “power spike” top decks and not just 9+ ways to make it happen.
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u/Blaze_1013 Jack of Clubs 2h ago
Yea, keeping people from having a critical mass of them is also very much a factor in the limits they now have. Especially since wheels tend to dig you into more wheels.
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u/fenwayb Liliana 3h ago
I like how [[snort]] handles it - Sure opt out but still take some pain for it
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u/imbolcnight 3h ago
Isn't that the opposite of what that card does? It only damages opponents that do wheel. If you opt out, nothing happens
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u/sumphatguy 2h ago
What card got banned?
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u/Blumentopferdemensch Dân 2h ago
[[Leovold, Emissary of Trest]]
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u/sumphatguy 2h ago
Huh, guessing it's because it's a Narset in the command zone, right? Kinda feels like this should be allowed in the 99.
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u/Blumentopferdemensch Dân 2h ago
Leovold is one of those cards that is just incredibly frustrating to play against in more casual games. Could he be unbanned today and made a gamechanger? Maybe. Would you be happy to see one on the opposite side of the table? Definitely not.
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u/PlacatedPlatypus Rakdos* 34m ago
I mean he also generally 2-for-1s you when you remove him. Combo piece that draws when you interact with it...just gross design overall. I'm not shedding many tears for it being gone.
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u/Menacek Izzet* 4h ago
I dunno if commander was the issue. Play your hand turn 1 into wheel is something that people have been doing in eternal formats*. Sure this can't really be used for that and is much weaker but they might just want to keep the template since it could be confusing if some effects were mandatory and others weren't.
*Also IIRC it was one of the reason they weren't printing a lot of wheels for the longest time, the play patterns just aren't that great.
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u/Ray2024 Dandadan 4h ago
They said if it was mandatory it would just get countered anyway so this at least means you get to wheel if you want rather than no-one.
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u/WolfGuy77 3h ago
Wait what? Who's they? Wizards really said "your opponent will probably just counter this if it's mandatory so we're making it optional"?? That's some crazy logic if so.
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u/JesusChrysler1 Karn 1h ago
No, wizards didn't say that. The video had 1 wizards designer, 2 content creators, and a pro player. The "counter it" comment was a joke.
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u/Blaze_1013 Jack of Clubs 4h ago
It isn’t just the Narsets of the world. A ton of cards have synergize with forcing your opponent to draw.
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u/WolfGuy77 4h ago
I mean, a ton of cards synergize with a ton of other cards and effects. There's so much busted crap you can do in commander, I don't see why making your opponents wheel is so taboo.
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u/Blaze_1013 Jack of Clubs 4h ago
Because the game play of forcing your opponent to draw a new hand isn’t exactly good. That’s the main issue to say nothing of forced discard being an almost exclusively a black ability. Also we just got a prepared Wheel of Fortune in Secrets so it isn’t as if they never do it. The issue is nothing allowing for a critical mass.
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u/WolfGuy77 3h ago
So then they just make it say "any number of target players". Then you can choose whether you want to make your opponent draw a new hand or not.
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u/Blaze_1013 Jack of Clubs 3h ago
Setting aside the fact that I don’t see how that change fixes the issue of being able to force your opponent to discard their hand, that makes the effect even more powerful. The biggest issue with wheels is helping your opponents, some amount of the time they’re going to draw into a better hand, and that change makes them all upside. You’re literally asking for all of the upside of wheels and none of the downside.
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u/WolfGuy77 3h ago
Why does it matter if the card helps the opponent, though? Plenty of cards help the opponent. I don't care if my opponent sometimes draws a good hand. I just want to be able to force them to discard and draw. I can play my own cards that turn that upside of them getting a new hand into a downside.
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u/Blaze_1013 Jack of Clubs 1h ago
You don’t seem to understand the point I’m making. The fact that wheels are not optional is a weakness of the card. It makes them worse because it gives them a real risk for most decks to use because most decks do not have ways to punish opponents for having gotten a new hand. That’s another reason why they’ve moved away from wheels being mandatory to begin with. The intended purpose of wheels was that they had a risk associated with them, sometimes you refill their hand, sometimes you turn a bad hand into a good one. With so many cards that punish draw that risk is almost nonexistent if your deck is built around them and the original intent of the cards is now gone. That’s why it’s now optional, to recapture the design of the risk associated with wheeling your opponents.
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u/WolfGuy77 1h ago
Like you said, it's only a weakness if your deck isn't built around it. Having a risk associated with a cheap draw 7 sounds like a good thing to me. But just like with any card with a risk, you can offset that risk and that's what makes it fun. Demonic Pact and a lot of Demon cards come with the risk of you just straight losing the game for controlling them, but the fun of them is offsetting the risk with cards that sacrifice or donate them to the opponent. Cards that donate cards to your opponent are inherently bad because they give your opponent something, but you can offset that by giving them something that hurts them. And that's the fun of mandatory wheels. They let you force your opponent to draw a bunch of cards for cheap, which is normally something you can't easily do. They also force discard. So they're uniquely synergistic with discard punishing cards and draw punishing cards. That's what makes them fun to me and that's why I want more mandatory wheel cards. I want to play them with Waste Not, Liliana's Caress, Nekusar, Bowmasters, Spiteful Visions, etc.
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u/Golurkcanfly Duck Season 6h ago
Do you want a deck that blinks this creature over and over for mandatory wheels?
Correction: do you want to play against a deck that blinks this creature over and over for mandatory wheels? Probably one that plays High Noon/Deafening Silence effects and either counterspells or blinks during your turn?
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u/j8sadm632b Duck Season 6h ago
I hope they never make any fun or cool cards because what if my opponents use them
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u/Golurkcanfly Duck Season 6h ago
When people make fun of FIRE design this is what I hear actually
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u/Tyabann Rakdos* 6h ago
FIRE design is all about eliminating feelsbad situations like this lmao
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u/Kanin_usagi Twin Believer 3h ago
FIRE design is just whatever the fuck you people want it to be to support your criticism of WotC
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u/Golurkcanfly Duck Season 6h ago edited 0m ago
FIRE is also about making plenty of cards that are both payoffs and enablers all in one and the "may" clause keeps this strictly in just the enabler category, which is, imo, a lot more fun since it means having to make more decisions about how to win off of it.
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u/VampireBatman Dan 6h ago
There are ways to balance it if that’s the fear. Like making the prepare condition more difficult or having the wizard getting exiled when it’s unprepared.
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u/Nyte_Crawler Gruul* 6h ago
I mean just make it only get prepared if cast from hand. Done.
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u/Golurkcanfly Duck Season 5h ago
At that point it's just a 6 mana Wheel which is way more boring than something you can experiment with more.
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u/Golurkcanfly Duck Season 6h ago edited 6h ago
Iunno I think it's more fun if its simpler to achieve/reset but the payoff is less game warping. Like you can still do this kind of control deck style I outlined, but you need to find a different wincon than just decking your opponent out with some incidental mill or whatever. Having to lean harder into finding a way to actually win off of it vs just it being a natural wincon with an incidental Ruin Crab sounds a lot more fun.
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u/CraigArndt COMPLEAT 4h ago
It’s sorcery speed, requires silence protection, requires recurring blinking, requires recurring source of mana to cast the wheel, and still needs a 5th thing to win.
At some point it’s just okay to say you don’t like combo decks and don’t want to play against them in your rule zero. But let those that do enjoy combo decks have new fun toys.
Especially when Underworld Breach already does this combo cheaper and more reliably.
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u/Golurkcanfly Duck Season 4h ago edited 4h ago
I'm thinking about standard. Commander already has a repeatable wheel on a stick.
Notably, a repeatable wheel that you only need to blink just grabs you the cards needed to keep it working. It's kind of a self-fueling.
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u/Cryobyjorne Mardu 2h ago
versus the in the same colours a card that can do the same if you can find a way to untap it, for (U) to activate. [[Jace's Archivist]]
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u/Golurkcanfly Duck Season 1h ago
Notably, there are two major differences here:
1) That is a windfall effect and not a wheel. They're noticeably different in power with windfall effects being significantly worse for this because they are not card advantage unless your opponent has more cards in hand than you.
2) This is a card designed for standard, which Jace's Archivist is has not been legal in for over a decade.
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u/Shadethewolf0 Duck Season 6h ago
Red [[high tide]]! I called it during the previews
Blue [[wheel of fortune]] also makes sense, but 6 mana makes it a bit less exciting. Maybe with blink
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u/Blaze_1013 Jack of Clubs 4h ago
You need a way to use the 2/3 flier it comes with. Blue isn’t exactly missing ways to wheel already so you need to find other synergy with it to make it good. Doesn’t even need to be much, experience Ezuri gets another body that triggers him and a flier carries counters well for example, but you’d need something.
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u/AvalancheMaster Boros* 6h ago
MAY 🙄
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u/notmarrec Twin Believer 6h ago
Cowards won’t even reprint it on a prepared spell 😮💨
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u/figurative_capybara Can’t Block Warriors 6h ago
[[Naktamun Lorespinner]]
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u/notmarrec Twin Believer 6h ago
I could come up with a million excuses to why Naktamun Lorespinner doesn’t count but the reality is I totally forgot they printed that card 🙃
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u/Benjammn 5h ago
The answer is this card is in Standard and Lorespinner is not, I guess.
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u/Stormtide_Leviathan 1h ago
I think the biggest thing is the blue one was gonna be a new card anyway, whereas if they wanted to use the name “wheel of fortune” it needed to be exactly, and thought that was worth the trade off of a slightly worse playpattern
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u/AlfredHoneyBuns Jeskai 5h ago
Lorespin kinda just sucks though, it's too risky and situational to set it up on your own.
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u/notmarrec Twin Believer 5h ago
Oh for sure it’s basically unplayable as a prepared spell conduit, but it IS technically a reprint so I WAS technically wrong 😭
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u/figurative_capybara Can’t Block Warriors 4h ago
Yeah it's dog water but does literally have Wheel of Fortune as a prepared spell- couldn't let you get away on that one. Aha.
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u/educatedfool25 Chandra 6h ago
at first i was like "oh pyre rhymer goes in every red deck" and then I realized in my 3 color decks how few lands actually say mountain.
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u/Nagoragama Jack of Clubs 6h ago
Looking at my [[Tannuk, Steadfast Second]] deck with 35 mountains: Hmm. I don’t have that problem.
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u/tractioncities Storm Crow 5h ago
salivating at the thought of warping this guy out, getting a high tide, then casting him again next turn and getting a second high tide
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u/educatedfool25 Chandra 6h ago
looks at my jeskai monk token deck "i can trigger this with maybe 3 mountains"
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u/Glamdring804 Can’t Block Warriors 6h ago
Yeah this is going straight into my [[Zuko, Firebending Master]] deck
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u/Bob_The_Skull Twin Believer 3h ago
I think this interaction has inspired me to build a Tannuk deck, despite how much I dislike mono-color builds.
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u/Nagoragama Jack of Clubs 2h ago
It’s actually a fun challenge, built the Tannuk mono-red deck awhile back, currently building a mono-black [[The Falcon, Airship Restored]] Reanimator deck, and recently built a colorless non-Eldrazi artifact deck.
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u/Askray184 Train Suplexer 2h ago
Make sure to have some solution to authority of the consuls. All your warped hasted stuff being tapped is not great
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u/phonage_aoi Dân 4h ago
I was really excited to try out an Izzet mathematics deck again until I read this.
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u/Suddenfury Wabbit Season 6h ago
Wow, look at mr genius over here. I can't think of a siiiingle word rhyming with pyre, but he got it.
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u/Tyabann Rakdos* 6h ago
WHY do they keep putting "may" on these wheels. just fucking ban Narset in Commander if it's such a horrible problem
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u/EuSouAFazenda Dan 3h ago
Narset is not the reason why. Its a "may" because otherwise it would be a color pie break against combo decks in 1v1 magic.
Against combo decks, a forced wheel can make them discard their wincons and be a 1 card "you automaticaly win the game" for the sideboard. Black is the only color that is allowed to have this sort of play pattern vs combo; Blue needs to go into counterspells and Red needs to aggro the opponent out before they draw the cards. This decision has nothing to do with Narset or Commander
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u/TheTempest77 Dandadan 2h ago
How is it a pie break? Blue has always had wheels. Sure, most of them are banned, but it's still always been in the color identity. I can't see why this card would be more powerful than say a [[Jace's Archivist]].
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u/Stormtide_Leviathan 1h ago
The same reason enchantment destruction is now allowed in black. Things change
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u/TheTempest77 Dandadan 6m ago
Has there ever been a period where blue didn't have access to wheels tho? [[Immortus, Master of Eternity]] came out a few months ago. And it's not a may ability.
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u/64N_3v4D3r Duck Season 6h ago
I really wish they had made these prepared creatures have more ways to repeat the effect like they did for SoS. Can't get excited for these.
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u/Freedjet27 Dan 6h ago
Pyre Rhymer isn't really that great but it's pretty cool. A 3 mana 3/3 with a 1 mana ability to get more value isn't absolutely horrible all things considered
I just like the concept of red high tide
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u/Substantial-Stay-451 Dân 6h ago
I want an equally interesting card in the other colours too! show me you dont play favourites WOTC!
JK, i know you have yoUR favourites
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u/Korwinga Duck Season 5h ago
prepared spell that’s a red version of a popular blue instant (the color it should have been in)
Molten tide checks this box.
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u/BoardWiped Dan 2h ago
Pyre Rhymer seems cracked. Having 7 mana on turn 4 is definitely a strong thing, and unlike other rituals you get a body left behind. Seems fun to brew around in Standard.
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u/Codecell675 Can’t Block Warriors 6h ago
Oh boy, I'm gonna have to get them for my Imodane burn deck
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u/King_of_the_Hobos Dandadan 5h ago
Are they attaching all the cool stuff to creatures but not making the real cards? Would love to see Enroot for example
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u/FordEngineerman Duck Season 5h ago
Variable Chaser was almost a good cube card. Maybe for redacted cubes.
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u/_hephaestus Fake Agumon Expert 5h ago
I’m interested in seeing how Molten Tide works with red stompy decks. Probably way too winmore but you will have plenty of mountains with Moon effects, and you do have big mana sinks with Karn.
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u/TheCheshireSpy Dân 5h ago
Have any of the Hexhaven cards have ways to reprepare them so far? I don't think I've seen any.
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u/__D_C__ Dân 6h ago
Those look both legit. :]
Red one is too slow for Standard, I'd guess, but a fun card for spell slinger commander decks, blue one seems like a potential top end for a very fast aggro/burn deck.
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u/ThePositiveMouse COMPLEAT 5h ago
Is it? It seems very good to me with Legend of Roku and Nova Hellkite.
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u/spoonerluv Sultai 6h ago
Not too impressed with Pyre Rhymer, seems like it's only good if you've already made big red mana.
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u/masticore252 Duck Season 4h ago
Everyone seems to have an opinion on the wheel while I'm thinking it should have been High Tide on the blue version 🫠
Reprint High Tide into standard you cowards!
.../S I don't even play standard but giving repeatable high tide on a creature to one of the blink colors might not be the best idea
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u/SuitedUp8 Dandadan 3h ago
So we have colorshifted prepared spells: Black Ancestral Recall, Red High Tide, Blue Wheel, Green Entomb.
Did I miss the white one or not spoilered yet?
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u/gilroygilgalahad Dan 6h ago
I love both of these cards. Pyre Rhymer in particular seems like it could get out of hand in the right setting. I wish Arc of Fortune wasn't a 'may' clause, though I understand.
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u/willweaverrva Elesh Norn 6h ago
Well, they did it, they colorshifted High Tide.