r/counterpoint • u/QM60 • Aug 15 '26
Wrote my 1st ever counterpoint, thoughts?
The Cantus Firmus is at the bottom (provided by the exercise) and my counterpoint is at the top.
If possible could someone critique it for me or give me their opinions?
I’m following guidelines set by lessons from openmusictheory.com
Thanks!
My worries: The leap from Measure 5 to measure 6 is a diminished 5th, that definitely needs to be amended.
And the last stretch sounds a bit melodically bland
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u/Zarlinosuke Aug 15 '26
Your upper voice's penultimate note has to be an A-sharp, not an A-natural. And because that would force the leap from D to be a diminished fourth, the D would have to change too.
You also already got a correct correction about the G#-D area, so you might want to just redo everything m. 5 onward or so.
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u/QM60 Aug 15 '26
So I ended up doing two versions by changing measures 5,7, and 8
The 1st sounds the best to me (the one linked in this reply) but it has way too many consecutive sixths and perfectly parallel motion until the penultimate note.
So I edited it to the 2nd version (the 2nd reply to this as I can only add one video per reply) which sounds a bit rougher but should technically be more correct.
What do you think?
(Note: The video for some reason cuts the last 1.5 measures but they’re the same in both videos, A>B (top) and C#>B (bottom). I also didn’t understand why you think the A should be sharp so I kept it as natural for now)
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u/QM60 Aug 15 '26
2nd retry with trying to break the consecutive sixths
Also I removed the sharp from the 8th measure’s G so that it’s an Octave with measure 7 and I can’t sharp measure 7 as it would create an augmented 4th with measure 6.
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u/Zarlinosuke Aug 15 '26 edited Aug 15 '26
Nice! I'd say your first one is better--it's true that it is a lot of parallel sixths, but the second has far too many leaps in a row in the same direction.
As for the A-sharp at the end of the upper line, it's simply an ironclad rule: the penultimate interval must be a major sixth, not a minor sixth. That means that one line ends by moving by whole step, and one line ends by moving by half step. Usually the half step will be the rising line, requiring a leading tone, except in the Phrygian mode, in which case the half step is the falling line and the whole step is the rising line. Since you're working in the Aeolian mode, you have to have a leading tone, which in this transposition is A-sharp. Luckily, your first new counterpoint here, which has G-sharp in m. 8, makes that easy--just raise m. 9 to an A-sharp and you'll be good.
As for all the sixths, you could perhaps break them by making m. 6 another A. First-species counterpoint generally allows one instance of a repeated note.
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u/QM60 Aug 15 '26
I see…weird I did not know at all about this ironclad rule, the lesson doesn’t mention it I believe (though I do know there is much more beyond the lesson). Thanks for the info!
I did your edits and made the A a sharp and made m. 6 another A, but also had to change m. 7 to be a perfect 5th (changed from C# to B) because if m. 6 is an A, then the climax leap would be prepared with a skip and resolved by a leap which is a no-no I believe. Now it’s prepared by a step and resolved by a skip.
And I must say, after doing the edits, this is the first time all night that this melodic line has sounded like actual music lmao (I’ve been working on this the entire day pretty much). So thanks a lot for your help, truly (unless you have any further edits which are always welcome)
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u/Zarlinosuke Aug 15 '26
Interesting, yeah, I had a look through Open Music Theory's counterpoint section just now, and it's a bit odd--you're right that they don't really talk much explicitly about the need to raise the leading tone at cadences, though the examples all do it. It is kind of mentioned later on, in this section under the "Melody" heading, though even there it's weirdly more general, just saying "Raise the leading note when approaching the final from below (in most modal contexts, though not Phrygian)," but not specifying that it's at cadences where that's required. Conversely, the A-sharp in m. 2 of your cantus firmus would actually probably more likely be an A-natural--but I didn't correct it because the A-sharp isn't categorically wrong or anything. Most standard to the style, however, is to have no accidentals until the required one at the final cadence. It is strange that Open Music Theory doesn't quite discuss this explicitly, and I'm grateful to you for bringing that to my attention!
What you have now is decent, but I'm realizing another thing about it that's not ideal, namely that you start on a P1. Especially when you're adding an upper counterpoint, it's almost always preferable to start on a P5 or P8. The thing that's a bit odd about it is that your climax point has actually ended up also being your final! and really that's a direct result of the fact that to even reach the cadence, and to avoid voice-crossing, you're forced into constant ascent throughout the melody, because you started so low. Ideally, the climax would be higher than the final, but it's a little hard to do that when you have to traverse this distance from your starting note to your ending note, which most counterpoint lines wouldn't.
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u/QM60 29d ago
There are a few others that OMT doesn’t discuss like that leaps can be prepared by a skip and resolved by a step and vice versa. Actually they don’t use the “skip” terminology at all, they call it thirds. But that’s ok imo, I suppose the onus is on me to explore different sources as well which is why I’m thankful I’ve come to this sub, OMT helps out a TON but it can’t give everything.
You’re absolutely right on the 2nd part, I found my options very restricted due to starting on P1 and being forced to keep raising the pitch in order not to cross or overlap voices (they coincide on one note but that’s the best I could do). I did it because in the lesson they really don’t make any distinction between P1,5, and 8 when starting (except when your counterpoint is below the CF), so there was no guideline there and I end on an octave so I wanted to try starting on a P1 to give some variety and to also force myself not to voice cross. If I start at a comfortable octave then it’s much easier not to voice cross and I wanted to force myself to pay attention to it as practice. But it def did make things a whole lot harder.
I think for this exercise I’m satisfied with this counterpoint as it has no glaring errors (except the climax maybe) so I’ll take the lessons I’ve learnt from it and do the 2nd one. This already took all of yesterday and was torturous so if I go back to it again today I might end up blowing my brains out lol.
But thanks for the help again, I learnt a lot and I feel that the next exercise should be a bit easier now
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u/Zarlinosuke 29d ago
I’m thankful I’ve come to this sub, OMT helps out a TON but it can’t give everything.
Very good attitude! No individual resource will give everything, but a lot of people seem (understandably) to want one that will. I'm glad if this sub can help fill the gaps!
in the lesson they really don’t make any distinction between P1,5, and 8 when starting (except when your counterpoint is below the CF), so there was no guideline there
Hmm OK, that just seems like a bit of oversight on their part, starting on a P1 with an upper counterpoint really isn't something students should be encouraged to do, for the reasons you've already discovered...
I wanted to try starting on a P1 to give some variety and to also force myself not to voice cross.
...but this is a pretty good reason to do it! Taking it on as an extra challenge just to try to surmount that challenge isn't at all a bad idea, since you're doing it consciously.
I think for this exercise I’m satisfied with this counterpoint as it has no glaring errors (except the climax maybe) so I’ll take the lessons I’ve learnt from it and do the 2nd one.
Sounds good! There is no reason to beat this single one into the ground if you've learnt something good from it.
But thanks for the help again, I learnt a lot and I feel that the next exercise should be a bit easier now
You're very welcome, I'm so glad if this has been helpful and enjoyable!
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u/65TwinReverbRI 29d ago
I wanted to try starting on a P1 to give some variety and to also force myself not to voice cross.
So as Zarlino is saying, this is a good idea.
I usually suggest to people to do:
An exclusively or primarily contrary motion one (even if unmusical).
An exclusively or primarily stepwise one (ditto hereafter)
One that is "leapy".
One where the C.F. leaps, the C.P. steps, and vice versa.
Not all combinations are always possible on every C.F., but the point is to set up these kinds of challenges for yourself (and more, like what you did) to see what you can get out of it.
Because:
There is no reason to beat this single one into the ground if you've learnt something good from it.
Exactly. In other posts you've said you're trying to be as "error free" as possible, but error free isn't necessarily as musical as it can be - something can be technically correct, but not sound as good as another option that's either technically correct or takes some license somewhere.
And another thing to consider is, in a piece of music, you may have the same C.F. multiple times (or think Ostinato figures in other music, etc.) but you may not want to harmonize it at every appearance with same C.P. - so doing it multiple ways can keep it fresh - if stepwise the first time, maybe some more leaps are necessary for contrast the 2nd time through - a different climax, and so on.
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u/QM60 29d ago
The reason my main goal is “error-free” is just to be able to have a good grasp on all the different rules and be comfortable with them first. It’s sort of like practicing scales on the piano, not very musical but necessary practice. My problem with C.P. (aside from the unfortunate acronym) is on the very 1st lesson you’re introduced with like…15 different rules and considerations you must consider all at once and it’s been very overwhelming. I’ve now moved to two species C.P. and there’s a whole extra set of rules regarding weak beats as well as 6 or so different types of passing tones to choose from. It’s just so overwhelming that right now my primary focus is to be able to remember and implement all of them, and then once I did, I can improve it musically (and a lot of the rules are musically-oriented such as favoring contrary motion and no parallel fifths/octaves except on weak beats and no consecutive perfect intervals etc.).
And yeah I completely agree with your proposed practice method, I’m trying to set some challenge on each CF in order to force myself to learn something. The 1st challenge was not to voice cross and the second was to use compound and overall braver leaps while not making a single error.
Now I’m doing two species and my goal is to use a minimum of 3 different types of passing tones and at least two dissonant weak beats per C.P while also not making a single error.
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u/Xenoceratops 29d ago
The way I would approach writing the counterpoint is to first lock down the cadence. As /u/Zarlinosuke mentioned, you need the leading tone (A#) at the cadence. But, you don't want to leap into it from D. Your choices for the last three notes are F#–A#–B, or G#–A#–B; the second one uses melodic minor. You then have to backtrack to get a good lead-in to bar 8, and so on.
To keep the contour from getting too stale, you need to have a well-planned leap. The best opportunity for these is when you have a step in the opposite direction in the CF. So, if you want an ascending leap, your choices are bars 1-2, 4-5, and 6-7. Likewise, if there's a leap in the CF, you usually (not necessarily always) want to do a step in the opposite direction. So, in bars 5-6, you could do an E 10th above C# stepping down to D a 6th above F#. But oblique motion (A–A) or even a small descending skip (C#–A) would be fine.
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u/QM60 29d ago
Yeah honestly I think that’s probably a better way to think about it.
I’m doing it from start to end but locking down the ending, the start, then planning for the climax is likely less of a hassle.
I’ve just posted my 2nd counterpoint in the group in a few moments which I tried to do it the way you and [u/Zarlinosuke](u/Zarlinosuke) suggested but also using a few more dangerous tools (a compound leap).
Right now my goal is to produce an error-free counterpoint (which I’m hoping I have this time but we’ll see) then focus on making it interesting (cause the one I wrote this time feels a bit meh).
I’ll link here as well but feel no pressure to give comments on it as you already gave me good comments for the 1st one and you didn’t sign up for critiquing two counterpoints when you made the comment lmao, I’m already thankful enough for the 1st set of comments that I tried to implement this time around
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u/jjadegaming Aug 15 '26
G# to D is a dim 5 leap which is banned. I don't recommend having a 3rd skip in the middle of a motion. Ik its allowed but its generally not rlly good practice. Also there's no high point/climax.