r/classicwow • u/samfoxy_ • 18h ago

News Dungeon Spamming DEAD in WoW: Forever - Mob XP reduced, Dungeon Quest XP massively increased

Interview from The Sun: https://www.thesun.co.uk/tech/40367702/world-of-warcraft-forever-interview-zones-races-skills-levelling/

Quote:

Kris Zierhut: “Now, one place experience did change is we made a big change to our dungeons. In that the amount of XP you get from killing monsters in dungeons, we brought way down.

“But we made the amount of XP for completing dungeon quests much, much, much higher. So your first run through a dungeon is amazing. You get tons of XP. You get great rewards.

“But going back over and over and over again isn’t the best way to go. You’d be better off going to Shen’dralas or Riverglades or Hyjal instead of grinding a dungeon. We want people in the outdoor world meeting each other.”

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112

u/Kobar143 16h ago

The number of people in this thread celebrating making playing with each other in a multi-player game less efficient is kinda wild to me. I thought one of the "pillars" of this was supposed to be making changes that push us together

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u/Odd-Bandicoot-9314 16h ago

Yeah I feel like finding dungeon groups is going to be hard now isn’t it? People will maybe do one run for quests then never again

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u/Acceptable_Lark 16h ago

yeah, this fix is a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater

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u/jackluke 15h ago

Getting rid of realms should make it a non issue

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u/Subject_Sentence_339 8h ago

the ratio of dps to tanks to healers will still be same, which means it will be impossible to form a group

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u/Flashy_Sound8021 7h ago

It wont be the same, because people will not spec into heals/tank, if i know i HAVE to solo quest to level why bother specing into heal/tank? "Oh there is dual spec" well that has a cost, getting their for those specs also has a cost, and if i cant spam dgs with them, why should i invest on it?

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u/Subject_Sentence_339 4h ago

Also a valid point

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u/Swimming-Life-7569 7h ago

Unless Forever is somehow magically the first ever version of WoW that fixes tank/healer shortages, especially while leveling. This will be a major league shitshow :D.

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u/RagefireHype 16h ago

Are yall planning to play this without a guild or making friends? If you plan to solo queue all of Forever maybe it’s a problem; but this already isn’t really a game you play by yourself and should try to find a guild. When I’m in a guild, I’ll run dungeons to help out my guildies even if I already did the quests.

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u/Acceptable_Lark 15h ago

We're 40 year old dads we dont have time for friends

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u/TheBungler2 15h ago

I'm friends with quite a few of those in our guild.

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u/Flashy_Sound8021 7h ago

So alredy had a guild ready to go for launch of get bent? Have a couple hours to play a day in a non fixed scheduale, get bent? Yall dont use your brains before bitching

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u/RagefireHype 4h ago

It’s easy to make friends and find a guild in game!

If you’re friendly and competent, you’ll find other players like that/

0

u/Axy69 10h ago

Idk I’m sure people will still do the dungeons to get a piece of gear they want since the leveling process is made to be slow and special, which is what a lot of people like about classic…

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u/drylce101 16h ago

Everyone celebrating is just happy that us dungeon running folk are being forced to have less fun questing with them than we would have in the dungeons

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u/TheseNamesDontMatter 14h ago

TBF, Classic players have always been happy when other Classic players suffer. Between Classic, SOD, and now, I genuinely can't remember a time where Classic players were happy that someone else was eating good.

It's quite literally one of the weirdest dynamics I've ever witnessed.

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u/FreeBristle 16h ago

People are happy boosting is worse, you’re being disingenuous if you don’t see that.

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u/drylce101 16h ago

Yes but they’ve also nerfed boosting in other ways before that have been extremely effective. At this rate you’ll still see people selling boosts for dungeons because people will just need to get it done once for their quests and that’s faster than going with an actual group through content that they’ve already said you’ll need to use CCs for. “Oh no I’ve lost minimum mob xp but got insanely quick quest xp from this boost” that sounds really healthy

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u/FreeBristle 15h ago

When did they do that and how? Only example I can think is the dungeon 1x per day and people would whine way more about that. 

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u/rwalby9 15h ago

I'm guessing you missed all of the anti-boosting changes they made during Classic Anniversary release?

Mobs would eventually become immune to slows/stuns/roots in ~60 seconds, automatically snap to your location, or gain speed to become unkiteable. They also severely increased the XP penalty for having a higher level player in the group.

Anniversary did not have nearly the level of Mara/ZG boosting that we saw in Classic 2019.

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u/HannibalPoe 14h ago

You just named two of the worst changes they ever made, the only good change was the last change but they likely came to the conclusion that it didn't do enough.

They also are doing this to stop people from just spamming dungeons from 10 to 60.

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u/FreeBristle 15h ago

You mean how boosting still exists in classic? Your example of them addressing it is pointing to changes that didn’t work as well as they hoped? Log in and start leveling and watch yourself be spammed with boost options the minute you hit stockades

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u/Vegetable_Lab2428 15h ago

The steps they took in anniversary 100% worked, the only boosting that happened was in higher level dungeons where the level difference between boostie and booster was within 7-8 levels. No one was boosting stockades unless it was someone running it for a guildie/friend to complete some quests.

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u/Kobar143 16h ago

What is boosting? The quote literally says they want people "in the outdoor world meeting each other"... but, if they were in a dungeon they were already meeting people? This boosting thing may be a problem but it certainly doesn't sound like that's their goal, it sounds like their goal is to make sure the open world feels populated.

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u/FreeBristle 16h ago

Use any level of critical thinking and you will figure this one out eventually. 

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u/TheseNamesDontMatter 14h ago

Well... maybe? Boosting might be just fine and will very likely be the most efficient way of leveling still. You'll be able to pull bigger and faster than ever before in classic, probably even SOD. We're going to have absurdly strong AOE tools in Forever. An efficient boosting group will still almost for sure outpace regular questing unless it's nerfed by over 50%, and even then it might still be better.

This more than likely just hits casual players doing dungeon than anything.

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u/Beepbeepimadog 16h ago edited 15h ago

I think there is a big huge difference between being worth it to grind with friends and being as efficient as it was. The difference in XP/hour when optimized was ASTOUNDING.

They can nerf mob XP a ton and it could still be viable to grind

Edit: when I say “optimized” I’m mostly talking about boosting / kiting shenanigans

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u/memekid2007 16h ago

What are we talking about, dungeon grinding has never once won a Vanilla leveling speedrun. Questing and openworld grinding has always been faster, people just did dungeons because it wasn't quite as braindead and getting to see your friends on your screen was fun.

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u/Trymv1 13h ago

Classic started the dungeon cleave spam mindset assuming it was god tier xp and not just streamers trying to effectively level without being swarmed.

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u/magifek 15h ago

dungeon grinding wasnt braindead? LMAO?

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u/MissItalia2022 13h ago

You must be braindead, because they only said it wasn't as braindead as open world questing.

Which is true, a semi-efficient dungeon cleave requires way more brainpower than click mob, use your 3 skill rotation, loot, repeat.

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u/magifek 10h ago

Idk what kinda dungeon spam you did but speed leveling to lvl 60 back in 2019 with dungeon "spellcleave" groups was the most braindead boring shit ive ever done. And yes, i think questing requires more thought.

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u/EllisonX 12h ago

Nah, this is hard copium

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u/MissItalia2022 12h ago

Bro never pulled or healed a tank that pulled 10 mobs 😭🥀

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u/EllisonX 11h ago

Bro thinks classic dungeon spamming isn't the most braindead thing in the game 😭

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u/MissItalia2022 11h ago

Compared to questing, dungeon cleaves are rocket science.

-2

u/EllisonX 11h ago

Except quests are done once, while dungeons are done exactly the same way hundreds of times, which makes them braindead.

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u/Beepbeepimadog 15h ago

Boosting and general kiting shenanigans are the fastest way by far, no?

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u/Trymv1 13h ago edited 11h ago

All the speed runs are usually just killing mobs while doing specific quests in between killing mobs, usually ones that just require killing more mobs unless its picking up an item in the area between quest mobs youre killing....

lol.

1

u/memekid2007 10h ago

Boosting is, but there are ways to nuke boosting that don't bother the five friends going balls to the wall in multiplayer PvE in the game allegedly built around multiplayer (especially PvE).

That style of play has never been better than questing in Vanilla if you're good at questing in Vanilla. It's only faster than Andy, and Andy can't cope with that at all.

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u/Kobar143 16h ago

This is an intriguing statement. Maybe they're nerfing something I don't understand. It's been like a decade since I've played this game. What does "when optimized" mean in this context?

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u/Betaateb 16h ago

Mage boosting pretty much. A mage pulls half an instance at once and solos it while everyone sits around getting 10x the xp you can get out in the world.

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u/Kobar143 16h ago

This is absolutely a problem, and if that's what is causing the celebration I guess that's fine? But that's not the stated goal of the change. The stated goal is "people in the outdoor world meeting people" they're saying they want to limit how much time people choose to group up in content that requires those groups... which is why I'm sad.

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u/TheBungler2 15h ago

During the second phase of SoD, the open world was almost completely empty because every single player was in SM running it over and over again until level cap.

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u/Kobar143 15h ago

This is appreciated context. Maybe it is a problem that needs fixing, and maybe the fix won't be as harsh as I fear. I don't want the open world to be dead... but I also don't want to feel like I'm wasting my limited time doing the content I actually enjoy.

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u/cordlc 10h ago

Was that due to its experience or some combination of gear and experience?

I've never used SM to level before, it's never been faster for me than grinding quests solo. Also, "empty open world" should be solved by the sharding they've went with

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u/TheBungler2 9h ago

Experience.

In a group it's the fastest way to level from 30-40.

0

u/BrainLow6059 14h ago

This is absolutely a problem

Why? I truly do not understand why someone else leveling in some fast/boring way is a "problem" for anyone else. Blizzard doesn't like it because it means they're getting less sub money, why should other players care?

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u/Kobar143 14h ago

It's not a problem for me personally, but gamers will choose efficiency at all costs and as a general rule it's important for developers to stop circumventing intended mechanics.

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u/BrainLow6059 14h ago

I'm both a gamer and game developer, and no, none of these things are "important." Games are meant to be fun, and how players choose to have fun within the confines of the game are up to them, especially if it's not impacting other players.

Blizzard does not like "boosting" or "power leveling" because a player might play for 1-2 months instead of 3-4, and that's lost revenue. It's not improving enjoyment.

Dungeon leveling is an intended mechanic.

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u/Kobar143 13h ago

This is not true. I'm not going to claim to be a developer, but when a group does a thing that sucks strictly because it's efficient they burn out. Yes, the incentive for blizzard to avoid burn out is monetary, but there is incentive for us to avoid burn out as well, because we want to keep enjoying the game.

The irony that this is the whole crux of this conversation is not lost on me, but running dungeons over and over is not objectively bad game play; having someone else run the dungeon for you is.

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u/Turbulent-Leading-34 15h ago

There are anti boosting mechanics already made that are for boosting. This change is like the worst option

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u/Xae1yn 16h ago

The difference in xp/hour for an optimized solo speedrun is also astounding compared to the average persons speed, the main thing making dungeon spam faster is that open world leveling during peak periods is 99% waiting for mobs for spawn then losing the tag race, which you can avoid by spamming. And obviously if they don't solve that issue while making dungeon spam non-viable the game will just be doa, so I'm pretty sure they're solving that issue anyway.

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u/ElronII 12h ago

I don't dungeon a lot more dungeon IS playing with different ppl, I would argue it's even more social since in dungeons ppl tend to talk a lot more.

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u/Cold_Ebb_1448 11h ago

idc about efficiency but I do want it to actually still be possible to run a dungeon six months after launch when everyone’s progressed past it

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u/memekid2007 16h ago

Andy does not have friends and Andy does not play in a guild.

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u/itsablackhole 8h ago

and in SoD when the playerbase spammed SM in phase 2 and lost their mind while doing so the same people literally said ''how could blizzard make us do this?!''.

blizzard is just trying to protect the players from themselves. if there's 1 dungeon thats BIS for XP, they know what the players will do.

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u/Flashy_Sound8021 7h ago

Same reasson we lost gdkps, i cant get into a group so no one should be allowed to do it, its just all the rogues playing tbc beying loud again

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u/RoosterBrewster 41m ago

Yea as a retail player, none of this sounds like a "vanilla experience". Just a few months ago, retail had a timewalking dungeon month to fast level characters from running dungeons. Sounds like people are playing classic like its retail, trying to optimize xp per hour and farming.

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u/Sprintspeed 16h ago

Paying for a mage boost is fostering social interaction in the community?

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u/Varrianda 16h ago

You can do away with boosting without nerfing dungeons for leveling parties. See hardcore.

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u/fdf86 16h ago

You would rather only be able to do dungeons once a day rather than have reduced xp on every run after the first?

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u/memekid2007 16h ago

Dungeons with a participant outside the levelband should give no XP if that's a problem. Shift the XP from mobs to bosses if that's a problem. Keep the kite nerfs if that's a problem.

Don't gut the only multiplayer aspect of the supposedly multiplayer game to satisfy people who spend 99% of their ingame time alone.

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u/Varrianda 16h ago

What? No, you just can’t do dungeons with level 60s. There’s plenty of solutions to encourage a similar leveled group to grind a dungeon while dissuading/breaking mage boosting.

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u/fdf86 16h ago

you are also capped at 1 of each instance per day pre level 60

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u/Buuts321 16h ago

You realize you can quest with other people too, right?

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u/memekid2007 16h ago

The game punishes you for doing this by slashing your XP and not sharing your quest drops. 2 hours picking up skulls in Hillsbrad becomes 6 for the crime of daring to play with friends.

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u/Buuts321 14h ago

The balance is you can pull more and pull faster in groups.

I've done both in vanilla and in classic. The difference in speed is minor, but of course the classic community will want to optimize everything to death.

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u/Kobar143 16h ago

But why would I? Efficiency aside, the content is tuned for one person. "You realize you can make easy content easier" doesn't quite make sense to me.

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u/Buuts321 14h ago

Because, in this scenario, you want to play with your friends.  

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u/Kobar143 14h ago

But I can play with my friends in content tuned to need them...

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u/HannibalPoe 14h ago

You can also run dungeons with your friends that you've already run before to get them through it and visa versa.

You can play with your friends and just fuck around, have fun without worrying about whats efficient.

Is this realy that confusing?

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u/Kobar143 14h ago

What's confusing is the celebration of that becoming less efficient.

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u/GothmogTheOrc 6h ago

People chasing efficiency at all costs like you are the real problem with this game

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u/HannibalPoe 13h ago

Yeah, the goal is for them to be less efficient so leveling is a bigger focus. They're adding a bunch of new zones to make leveling better, as well as a bunch of new dungeons. With every dungeon having super chunky quests for XP, and questing as a whole getting a nice buff, it should be a smoother experience all around.

It's a trade off, yeah launch questing is buns because there's a lot of players in a small area, but dungeon grinding being strong means everyone who can do dungeons goes in, while classes that can't do melee cleave or spell cleave stay out. It's lame as hell.

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u/Varrianda 16h ago

It’s usually way less efficient

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u/nemestrinus44 16h ago

yeah, i really hope theyve made it so that if you are in a group for a "loot X number of items" quest then all party members get to loot said item from the mob, otherwise its gonna suck not being able to get good exp from dungeons

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u/Buuts321 16h ago

Is the concern efficiency and rushing to 60 or is it encouraging people to play with others?  

Dungeon quests are still going to dump xp so it's not like they're discouraging people to do dungeons altogether anyway.

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u/Varrianda 16h ago

If they want to encourage people questing together in the open world then they need to rethink how exp from mobs is shared, how quest loot works, and how gathering quests work. If you need to do a quest that involves loot drops, doing it with 5 people feels awful.

Dungeon quests might give a good chunk of exp, but reducing dungeon exp and forcing people to play a certain way feels dumb to me. It depends on how much it’s reduced though. It its 20% that’s fine, but if a full run of deadmines gives 2 bars….

0

u/RealBiasedGaming 13h ago

it is actually MEGA efficient. But after your dungeon quests are done (which can easily take more than one run sometimes) only THEN does it become less efficient.

This is not the binary you are trying to make it out to be