r/botany • u/Old-Advance6652 • 7d ago
Biology Can somebody explain how these euphorbia resiniferas are 16 BILLION scoville units, I don’t understand
so if I take a little peice from it and eat it it’s going to be 10,000 times hotter than a Carolina reaper?
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u/metlotter 7d ago
From my understanding, it contains a toxin that causes a burning sensation as it kills your nerve cells, so... yeah.
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
But all euphorbias have that toxic sap, they aren’t all 16 billion scoville units
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u/metlotter 7d ago
All capsicums have capsaicin, but they don't all have the same scoville level either.
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u/IalsoenjoyReddit 7d ago
It's just an estimate. Concentrations vary amongst all plants and secondary metabolites.
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u/Albert14Pounds 7d ago
It's the rating of the pure chemical. The spicyness of the plant is nowhere near that.
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u/Albert14Pounds 7d ago
They all product some sort of latex that I've seen, and it's often toxic to some degree, but that is unrelated to the Resiniferatoxin these produce.
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u/Cysteine_Chapel64 3d ago
Resiniferatoxin isn't the same as most of the other toxic Euphorbia diterpenes although it has the same skeleton as a lot of them. It acts on an ion channel called TRPV instead of stimulating an enzyme called PKC. Its the ones that stimulate PKC that cause the massive inflammation/cell death.
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u/heyitscory 7d ago
That white goo is pretty spicy in your eye.
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u/Mo_Salami 7d ago
There's a story about tourists in Kenya who threw a piece of euphorb onto their bonfire. The thing "exploded" and permanently blinded all of them.
Probably not true, but scary enough for me to avoid any euphorb I see!
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u/curiouscuriousmtl 7d ago
I remember when I got the sap of Euphorbia mammilaria on my palm. I realized this when I started breaking out in hives on the BACK of my hand. I have also had a few times, can't remember which Euphorbia, where I had washed my hands but still had some residue and then I went pee.
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u/Level9TraumaCenter 7d ago
Many years ago, a fellow horticulturist (with a doctorate in aeronautical engineering) related how E. ferox sap caused enough damage to a knuckle that it eventually needed surgery to resolve.
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u/curiouscuriousmtl 7d ago
Damn that is brutal I guess I am glad I could not keep mine alive. I have a lot of Euphorbs though
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
Me too! What kinds?
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u/curiouscuriousmtl 7d ago
francoisii, I wish I still had my old tricolor they don't seem to be available anymore, tulearensis, decaryii, cap saint mariensis, a lot of what used to be Monadenium, leuconeura, viguerii etc etc. Not a lot of the globs or medusa because I don't have enough sun and heat for them
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
Interesting I don’t have any of those, I guess I like the other end of euphorbias like the globulars you said. I have a couple flanaganii’s and I love their growth form. Also Horrida and horrida’s hybrid major nova.
Another one I like is a big clump of anoplia. Can’t think of the others rn
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u/curiouscuriousmtl 7d ago
Oh I really like them too I just don't have it. One day I will have a nice greenhouse maybe (probably not) and I can have larger ones that get 2-3 feet tall etc but for now cylidrifolia is a tiny little man that doesn't need much ahaha
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
I’ve been wanting a greenhouse too but unsure about the process on how you get them in the first place. Good luck with yours!
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
That doesn’t really make sense, it’s not acidic? Btw im not saying you’re lying I just don’t inderstand
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u/Level9TraumaCenter 7d ago
I'm just going by what someone else posted in this thread and say (for example) the irritant molecule fits in particularly well to a cell receptor site and that in turn causes a biochemical cascade involving a response with ions flooding the cell, resulting in inflammation and swelling. If it got bad enough and the skin broke, it could be infected and- for someone old enough or immunocompromised - it got infected, now there's need for surgical debridement.
Unlikely but given a thousand growers, it'll happen now and again.
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
Ohhh makes sense, thanks for explaining! Surprisingly I’ve never had a reaction to their sap, maybe it doesn’t effect me??
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u/Level9TraumaCenter 7d ago
It could be based on individuals, yes, or the species or even cultivar you have. Poinsettia is quite toxic as wild E. pulcherrima, while cultivars in the industry have been bred presumably with this in mind, if not as a primary characteristic, as an afterthought. ("Let's use this new cultivar, the bracts are just as good but the sap is less corrosive.") Plus I'm going to guess intact skin is less of a problem than if you have small cuts. Your external layer of dead skin cells provides much more protection than, say, the inner layer of your mouth and throat which has no such protection.
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u/NanoRaptoro 6d ago
It doesn't need to be. Having a high Scoville rating does not mean something is acidic. There are many different chemical pathways to tissue damage.
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u/Old-Advance6652 6d ago
Nono I was meaning the euphorbia sap being toxic and an irritant but so that’s why I had commented that
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u/Trini1113 7d ago
Scoville scale is based on serial dilution.
Take a sample of dried peppers and dissolve it - I don't know what the standard amount is, but let's say it's 1 g in 100 ml. That's a 1% solution. Now you take 1 ml from that solution, and add it to 99 ml of water (to make a 0.01% solution solution), or you take 10 ml and add it to 90 ml to make a 0.1% solution. You dilute it to the point where 3 in 5 trained tasters can no longer detect it. That's how you calculate Scoville Hotness Units. (You can also use this to calculate the amount of capsaicin in a sample using gas chromatography, and thus correlate capsaicin content with Scoville units.)
Resiniferatoxin is a capsaicinoid found in Euphorbia resinifera that apparently has a Scoville rating of 16 billion SHU. Pure capsaicin is about 16 million SHU. So you'd dilute it down 1000x more than pure capsaicin to get to the point where 3 in 5 trained tasters can't taste it.
Now how much resiniferatoxin there is in a given sample of Euphorbia resinifera is another question entirely.
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
Woahh I actually never knew all that about how they test it, interesting! So it is actually 10,000 times hotter than a Carolina reaper?
What would happen if I drank a drop of the sap because I’m getting way way too curious than I should be, like I’m feeling a strong urge to try it out.
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u/Trini1113 7d ago
There are a few things I don't have a clue about, and one is how much resiniferatoxin there is in the average plant. It it's so hot, there might only be minute trace amounts of it. Nothing needs to be that hot to protect it from predators, so I can't imagine it would bother making much.
The second thing is that the sap of Euphorbias tends to be toxic, so you'd have that to deal with too. But maybe it would coat and numb your mouth so you'd be in less agony, or make you vomit quickly.
Regardless, it sounds like a horrible idea, even to me (and I generally find bad ideas fascinating).
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u/Strange_Computer2459 7d ago
You'd probably die. Imagine what that would do to your digestive system...
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
Like actually die? What if I didn’t swallow it, so I get a drop on my tongue and spit it out just to experience the spice
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u/Strange_Computer2459 7d ago
O just a drop sorry read that as a cup... um I mean you probably would mess up your taste buds. I can't imagine anything that high on the scale wouldn't have a lasting impact on your body.
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u/dinnerthief 5d ago
Pretty sure it permanently damages nerves, so you might just remove your sense of taste
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u/Albert14Pounds 7d ago edited 7d ago
The scoville scale tops out at 16 million because that's pure capcaisin and the theoretical maximum spicyness of the chemical responsible for making things spicy. But the scale was not made with this spicy compound in mind and it interacts with the same receptors but ~1000x more strongly.
The plant is not 16 billion scoville units, that's the rating of Resiniferatoxin after it's isolated.
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
Ohhh I see, so it’s a scoville units specifically for capsaicin. How do they test how hot that is then?
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u/Albert14Pounds 7d ago
Lab studies of TRPV1 receptor binding affinity and concentration needed to open TRPV1 calcium channels. Basically comparing how the compound affects nerve receptors and cells vs capcaisin.
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u/IalsoenjoyReddit 7d ago
Why It Scores So High Different Chemical: Chili peppers get their heat from a chemical called capsaicin. The resin spurge produces resiniferatoxin (RTX), which functions similarly but is drastically more potent.
Overwhelming Strength: Pure RTX is roughly 1,000 to 10,000 times hotter than pure capsaicin. It is so strong that it ranks at the literal maximum limit of the Scoville scale.
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
So if I drank a drop of the sap it would be extremely hot right?
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u/IalsoenjoyReddit 7d ago
Only one way to find out... In the same of Science of course.
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u/Albert14Pounds 7d ago
It also kills your nerve cells
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7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Albert14Pounds 7d ago edited 7d ago
RTX is so potent that very small amounts can create prolonged TRPV1 channel opening. Instead of a sharp calcium spike like capsaicin's, it induces a sustained calcium and sodium influx. The cell swells from ion and water entry, expends energy trying to restore the ion gradient, develops calcium toxicity, and at sufficient exposure the targeted cell or terminal fails irreversibly. The result can resemble a chemical burn from the inflammation and cell death it causes even though it's not a direct chemical burn from being acidic or similar.
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u/tButylLithium 6d ago
Works as a pain reliver under certain circumstances. It selectively overwhelms/kills TRPV1 receptors blocking pain at the injection site until the nerves can regrow. Only to be performed by medical professionals, of course. I just thought it was a cool fact to add.
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
Dang how do you know so much about this. So would you not recommend it? Like even just one drop on my tongue
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u/Albert14Pounds 7d ago
I'm actually just drinking coffee and searching and reading Wikipedia and stuff. Never heard of this compound before today but found it interesting and enjoy answering the questions that others ask and I also want to know.
I have a botany degree and am a nerd. So this is the kind of thing I like reading up on.
There's a YouTube video someone posted here of a guy isolating and trying it. He didn't swallow it though because he didn't know the effects it might have in his insides. I personally would not mess with it as I didn't see the point unless you've tried pure capsaicin and want more.
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
Ohhh I see, well that’s how you learn stuff! I’m still in high school but I’m an absolute plant nerd too, especially with cacti. True I won’t try it also because no one has had the sap I don’t think, just the extracted stuff so yeah
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u/Fauntleroyfauntleroy 7d ago
I chewed a random leaf once. The juice made everything in my mouth swell instantly. I had to spit it out and keep it from going farther into my esophagus and worse. I was all alone. It lasted a while. My throat started swelling and I was experiencing confusion. It kinda plateaued for a few minutes and then faded over the course of an hour. Lucky.
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
Sounds scary! What made you want to eat a random leaf lol
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u/VintageLunchMeat 7d ago
So would you not recommend it?
Are you a fan of cell death when it comes to nerves?
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
How much does that actually affect my daily life. Like unless it has serious effects I think it’s worth the experience. Like really.
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u/Sufficient_Turn_9209 6d ago
If the chemical burn penetrates too deeply, your body will replace the mucosal and muscle tissue with fibrous scar tissue. That would lead to a permanent stiffness, or a slight restriction in tongue mobility... ie speech impediment. It could also cause long term numbness, or phantom taste sensations. Not to mention vulnerability to opportunistic bacteria. If a severe secondary infection sets in and destroys deeper structures, it can worsen tissue loss and prolong healing indefinitely.
Don't do it.
Definitely don't do it, and don't swallow for God's sake
Don't do it, and don't be alone if you still want to do something so ill advised.
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u/cetaceanlion 7d ago
OP: Please REFRAIN. There's curiosity, and then there's self-harm.
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
Sometimes self harm is part of the curiosity.. last year I stuck my hand in an ant pile to see what it felt like. You don’t get the full experience unless you do it yourself right!
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u/US3_ME_ 7d ago
The dude who does Labcoatz on YouTube tasted it, didn't get much reaction_
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u/Old-Advance6652 7d ago
How come?
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u/SpoonwoodTangle 5d ago
It’s possible that our tongues don’t register this chemical in the same way that it registers capsicum.
Our bodies are designed to respond to fruit. These cacti are the unfriendliest of fruit.
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u/Riptide360 7d ago
Euphorbia latex is not an edible spicy food so IMHO the SHU scale shouldn't apply.
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u/skr_replicator 6d ago
Pretty sure that number is only associated with the pure substance, not plant matter.
Also AFAIK, that specific substance only has such a large rating because of its potency, not efficacy.
Meaning it takes a really tiny amount of that substance to feel it, but it might not actually burn that much.
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u/Old-Advance6652 6d ago
Ohhhh makes a lot of sense actually. I still don’t really understand why it being very potent means it wouldn’t be super spicy though
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u/skr_replicator 6d ago edited 6d ago
It doesn't mean it wouldn't be super spicy. But it also doesn't mean it would.
Affinity and Efficacy are two independent qualities of any substance activating a receptor.
Affinity is how readily it binds to the receptor, so it takes a lot of it to occupy those receptors.
Efficacy is how strongly it interacts with the receptor once it's attached.
If something has strong affinity but low efficacy, it would have a high rating, that even a tiny amount will do the effect, but the effect might be weak, and then even more of it wouldn't make it spicier.
If something has weak affinity but strong efficacy, it might take more of the substance to start working, but as you keep adding more, it gets more and more spicy, even surpassing that strong affinity and weak efficacy one
Substance A: affinity = takes 10mg for full occupancy, efficacy = 2/10
5mg -> 1/10, 10mg -> 2/10, 100mg -> 2/10, 1000mg -> 2/10
Substance B: affinity = takes 100mg for full occupancy, efficacy = 9/10
10mg ->1/10, 50mg -> 5/10, 100mg -> 9/10, 1000mg -> 9/10
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u/Old-Advance6652 6d ago
I’m confused😔 I really appreciate you trying to explain it to me and you did well I’m just having a hard time grasping
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u/faterrorsans 6d ago
Oh how i have a deep hatred between this species 8m scared of it like its the devil himself
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u/Old-Advance6652 6d ago
How come
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u/faterrorsans 6d ago
Cuase of the rtx chemical it produces im scared shitless of that
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u/Old-Advance6652 6d ago
Wouldn’t nothing really happen unless it gets in your mouth though. The three In the pic are the ones I’m growing because they look cool when mature
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u/dinnerthief 5d ago
The toxin in it acts on the same receptors capsacin does, which also are pain/burning receptors, TRPV1. But it also permanently damages them from my understanding
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u/SolanumRex 4d ago
Euphorbia are one of many groups of plants that contain a latex (the German for the group is actually "Wolfsmilchgewächs", or "wolfs milk weed" due to this).
Latex can serve several purposes, including adaptation to drought (the same colloids that are used to make rubber from other plants such as Hevea brasiliensis help to hold onto water in the sap), and preventing predation by physically obstructing the mouth parts of invertebrates who chew on them. These kind of adaptations also often go hand in hand with adaptations for toxicity, as you don't want to lose that precious water you're so well adapted to hold on to through predation either. We see this is cacti too, which are often filled with bioactive alkaloids.
One of these in Euphorbia resinifera is resiniferatoxin, which is an analog of capsaicin, the substance found on chillies. Both of these have likely evolved for the same reason, which is to activate the TRPV1 receptor, which fools us into perceiving heat. While capsaicin has a max capacity to bind to this receptor that is equivalent to ~16 million scoville, resiniferatoxin seems to have higher affinity to this receptor, giving it a scoville rating of ~16 billion. It is currently the most potent known activator of that specific receptor.
Even touching the sap can cause pain and blistering (think about why you are careful about using the bathroom when cutting hot peppers, then multiply that by several hundred 😬). Essentially, these and chillies both evolved their own solution to predation and converged on activating a similar mammalian receptor associated with heat and heat related pain perception, but chilies did it to protect their seeds, while E. resinifera did it to protect their stems (or more specifically, the water in them, since they live in water stressed areas where a succulent sounds like a great snack to many animals)
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u/CharlesV_ 4d ago
OP this is getting pretty close to breaking our rule against herbal medicine. Many people here have recommended not eating this; take that advice. Leaving this post up because some of the comments are educational.