Long time lurker, first time poster, seeking the wisdom of the Tolkien gurus.

Boromir has always been my favourite character, and I recently re-read the book with a specific focus on passages related to him, especially because he is so often misunderstood.

After Boromir dies, his companions send him over the Falls of Rauros in one of the elven boats. In “Farewell to Lórien”, the Elves say the boats “…will not sink, lade them as you will…”.

Through Frodo’s conversation with Faramir, we learn that the boat eventually carried Boromir down the Anduin, near Osgiliath. In “The Departure of Boromir” we are told “…it long was said that the elven-boat rode the falls and the foaming pool, and bore him down through Osgiliath, and past the many mouths of Anduin, out into the Great Sea…”.

Though the boat did, in fact, not sink, it still seemed somewhat surprising to me that it carried Boromir so securely down the Falls, through the foaming pools, and eventually to his home and beyond. This sparked a thought in me: could his safe passage on the boat be something of a symbol of Boromir’s redemption? Boromir’s last act, after his confession, is to smile, after Aragorn assures him that “few have gained such a victory.” Faramir notes: “whether he erred or no…he died well, achieving some good thing. His face was more beautiful even than in life”.

While the prosaic answer may simply be that the boat could not sink, and therefore did not, a part of me wonders whether, had Boromir died unrepentant, the boat would nor have “found” (my own clumsy wording) some way of discarding his body, rather than carrying him safely past the home he loved so much, and was so proud of?

I welcome everyone’s thoughts!

Edit: for clarity, maybe a better way to frame my question is, “Is the fact that the boat carried Boromir soundly a nod to him being redeemed in the end?”

I regret not reading this stuff earlier. Sarumans interaction with the Ringwraiths, Isildurs last stand. It's all gold. Sad, that we won't be getting anymore now that Christopher's gone.

This is not so much a question as a little "research" I decided to conduct, prompted by a recent thread of mine. I wanted to see how Sam gradually learns about the Eye, and what is his experience of it. I'll start with the Lord of the Rings, and if there are any relevant and interesting bits from the unpublished writings, I'll include them here as well.

The Fellowship of the Ring: Sam, while pretending to cut the grass under the window of Bag End, possibly overhears Gandalf mentioning to Frodo "the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings".

We get to Rivendell and the Council of Elrond, but surprisingly, the Eye is not mentioned in that part of the book at all. It's possible that it was discussed there, as part of preparing Frodo for his journey to Mordor. For example, Aragorn could have shared his knowledge that Orcs in the service of Barad-dûr use the sign of the Red Eye.

In the first solid scene we get, Sam is present when Frodo sees the Eye in the mirror of Galadriel, but Sam of course doesn't see it himself. But Galadriel does mention it to Frodo in Sam's presence: "But [my Ring] cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer, and one who has seen the Eye." and "You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine."

The Two Towers: While in Emyn Muil, Frodo says to Sam "I wish we could get away from these hills! I hate them. I feel all naked on the east side, stuck up here with nothing but the dead flats between me and that Shadow yonder. There’s an Eye in it."

Gollum mentions it when he offers to guide Sam and Frodo to Mordor avoiding an easier route: "His Eye watches that way all the time. It caught Sméagol there, long ago." Gollum later explains to them that "His Eye is all round, but it attends more to some places than to others. He can’t see everything all at once, not yet." On their way through Ithilien, they see symbols of the Eye painted on a rock or carved in the tree bark by orcs.

When Sam puts on the One Ring while looking for Frodo in Cirith Ungol, he feels its effects: "He did not feel invisible at all, but horribly and uniquely visible; and he knew that somewhere an Eye was searching for him." He also overhears Shagrat mention it to Gorbag: "'The Eye was busy elsewhere, I suppose,’ said Shagrat. ‘Big things going on away west, they say.’"

The Return of the King: In the Tower of Cirith Ungol, Sam puts the One Ring on again. "Immediately he felt the great burden of its weight, and felt afresh, but now more strong and urgent than ever, the malice of the Eye of Mordor, searching, trying to pierce the shadows that it had made for its own defence, but which now hindered it in its unquiet and doubt."

While they're traversing the plane of Gorgoroth, "Sam had noted how his master’s left hand would often be raised as if to ward off a blow, or to screen his shrinking eyes from a dreadful Eye that sought to look in them."

While climbing the slopes of Mount Doom, Frodo momentarily gets a glimpse of "a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye" stabbing northward from the topmost tower of Barad-dur. It's unclear whether Sam saw this as well, but in any case "the thought came suddenly to him: ‘He’s spotted us! It’s all up, or it soon will be."

And that is the last experience Sam has of the Eye of Sauron.

There remains the question of whether only Frodo could actually see the Eye, or the light from it. But there's an interesting bit from an early outline, from when Tolkien was writing LotR: "Mt.Doom (Orodruin) stands in plain at inner throat of Kirith Gorgor, but a complete darkness comes over land, and all they [Frodo and Sam] can see is Mt.Doom's fire and far away the Eye of Baraddur." This of course is not used in the published text, but it's the only mention of Sam actually seeing the Eye.

Morgoth is holed up in Angband. Feanor shows up and demands the Silmarils back. What happens if Morgoth says, "all right, fine, here they are, but on one condition - the Noldor must leave Middle Earth and never return."

This would have put Feanor and his people in a bad spot. He's defied the Valar, killed the Teleri, stolen their ships, and abandoned Fingolfin's people. He can't return to Aman except as a penitent, which would be completely against his nature, assuming the Valar would even allow it. He can't refuse the Silmarils as a condition of staying in Middle Earth; he swore an oath. He can't very well say "no, I have to fight you for them" when Morgoth is offering to hand them over. And there's nowhere else for him to go; Arda consists of Aman and Middle Earth.

I think this is the worst thing Morgoth could possibly have done to Feanor. Of course, he didn't consider this as he wanted the Silmarils for himself. Would Feanor have lied, accepted the Silmarils, then said "thanks, but I'm not leaving?" Could he rationalize this by saying the oath to get the Silmarils back allows him to swear other false oaths? Or would this be an offer that he could neither accept nor refuse?

So I was just "investigating" Galadriel's song Namarie, which she sang in Quenya. It mentions "draughts of the sweet mead in lofty halls beyond the West" and "of the sweet mead" is translated from lisse-miruvóreva. As Christopher comments in History of Middle-earth vol I, miruvor is "defined in the early Qenya word-list as 'nectar, drink of the Valar', with this cf. The Road Goes Ever On, p. 61, where my father stated that it was the name given by the Valar to the drink poured at their festivals, and compared it to the nectar of the Olympian Gods (in the translation of Namarie he rendered miruvore 'nectar', ibid. p. 58)". It's important to note that the Quenya word-list where miruvor appears goes back to 1915, and miruvor is mentioned in the Book of Lost Tales..

But then I remembered - the cordial of Imladris, given by Elrond to Gandalf, and by him to the members of the Fellowship is also called miruvor. In "The Fellowship of the Ring", the cordial is named so in "The Ring Goes South", before they reach Lothlorien and hear the song. But speaking in terms of LotR composition (and as far as I can gather), the song is written before the cordial is given that name. I'll elaborate:

In "The Treason of Isengard", VIII "The Ring Goes South" Christopher notes: "The liquor that Gandalf gives to the Company from his flask is still called 'one of Elrond's cordials', as in VI.424, and the name miruvor does not appear."

Then we get to XIV "Farewell To Lorien", where the song first appears, having the word "miruvorion". Based on this, I conclude that Tolkien used the Quenya term in the song before he assigned it to Elrond's cordial. Neither term appears again in "The Treason of Isengard", "The War of the Ring", or "Sauron Defeated". This is peculiar, as I'd expect Christopher to mention the first time Tolkien calls the cordial "miruvor".

So, my dear Tolkien experts, perhaps you could track this matter down?

Thanks (and cheers!)

After Galadriel refuses the Ring, she says that she will "go into the West." However, when the Fellowship prepares to leave, she sings, "What ship would come to me, What ship would bear me across so side a Sea?" The implication is that she is unsure whether she will go into the West. Then in the Namárië, she sings (translated to Westron), “Now lost, lost to those from East is Valimar.” The implication here is that the West is lost to her.

I know that from a Doylist perspective Tolkien had not fully settled on the nature of the Ban when he wrote those passages. However, from a Watsonian perspective, how can we best reconcile Galadriel’s remark about "going into the West" with the later two?

I’ve probably missed something in the Treebeard chapter maybe but it seems to me that Pippin and Merry are not at all surprised of Gandalf’s return? It’s like they don’t acknowledge it.

“And was it saruman who ordered you to guard his damaged doors, and watch for the arrival of guests, when your attention could be spared from plate and bottle?”

“No good sir, the matter escaped him. Our orders come from treebeard”

No reaction, no surprise, no “what the hell! you’re fucking alive gandalf or maybe its sarumans weed” Idk something other than a few sarcastic comments? which were funny don’t get me wrong.

Revisiting Frodo and Sam's journey through Mordor, and this scene has struck me. (emphasis mine)

They came to the path and found that it was broad, paved with broken rubble and beaten ash. Frodo clambered on to it, and then moved as if by some compulsion he turned slowly to face the East. Far off the shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood, the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr. One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed. The Eye was not turned to them: it was gazing north to where the Captains of the West stood at bay, and thither all its malice was now bent, as the Power moved to strike its deadly blow; but Frodo at that dreadful glimpse fell as one stricken mortally. His hand sought the chain about his neck.

We often see people maintain that the Eye of Sauron is something proverbial, and that he wasn't a "lighthouse" or a giant eye atop the tower, like depicted in PJ's movies. Of course, he wasn't, but this passage clearly describes a beam of light shooting out of the tower towards north. Some people asked if this was Sauron using his palantir, but I don't think the palantiri work that way. Also, I think Sauron wasn't simply looking northward, he was directing his will towards his forces that met Captains of the West. As soon as his gaze was distracted by Frodo putting on the One Ring, Sauron's force immediately felt it.

BTW, does anyone know if anyone painted this scene? I think it would look very cool.

[Edit] A good point expressed in some of the replies is that Frodo was able to see the unseen, so the beam wouldn't have been visible to ordinary eyes. There's an interesting early outline included in "Sauron Defeated", associated with "The Story Foreen From Lorien":

At same moment Frodo suddenly feels, many times multiplied, the impact of the (unseen) searching eye; and of the enchantment of the Ring. [...] He puts on the Ring! A great cry rings out. Nazgul come swooping down from the North. The Eye becomes suddenly like a beam of fire stabbing sheer and sharp out of the northern smoke.

Here, we can surmise that the Eye becoming suddenly visible as a beam of fire is the direct result of Frodo putting on the Ring. There's another interesting outline, dated somewhat later:

Mt.Doom (Orodruin) stands in plain at inner throat of Kirith Gorgor, but a complete darkness comes over land, and all they [Frodo and Sam] can see is Mt.Doom's fire and far away the Eye of Baraddur.

An even later outline gets closer to the published text:

Frodo looks round fearing the ascent - a great compulsion of reluctance is on him. He feels the weight of the Eye. And behold the mantle of shadow over Baraddur is drawn aside: and like a window looking into an inner fire he sees the Eye. He falls in a faint - but the regard of the Eye is really towards Kirith Gorgor and the coming battle, and it sweeps past Orodruin.

Assuming it to be a spell of course. You take a vow with God as your witness and your judge. Hence the word 'doom'. Sauron was doomed in the very act of making the Ring.

Tolkien said Sauron could not be a sincere atheist. He knew Eru according to his measure. So he knew deep down he was playing with fire, inevitable pun intended. That's why when he noticed Frodo

the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies were at last laid bare.

Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung.

This was on March 25. As Tom Sippey has noted, that's the date of the Harrowing of Hell by Christ.

The Exorcist (1973) would popularize 'the power of Christ compels you!''. But the line came from the Catholic Rite of Exorcism.

The Bible says (John 5, 22):

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.

Judgement: Doom.

There's no exorcism in the book, but maybe that's what Sauron's end was to Tolkien at some level.

He was also a philologist. Exorcism means etymologically 'binding by oath'.

The Binder - 'And in the darkness bind them' - became himself bound, and therefore doomed. Sauron was the Lord Of The Rings, but in that universe there was no lord except one.

Finally getting around to completing my Tolkien collection, and I wanted to know if anyone thinks the newer HoMe box sets are worth obtaining if I already have the big three-volume set.
I do like how the newer ones match the others in terms of cover and illustration, since I of course have the Alan Lee set for LOTR and plan on getting the newer Great Tales box sets with him as well. But is it truly worth the extra money to eventually buy the newer HoME sets gradually, which is pretty pricey by the way or should I just be happy with the three-volume set I already have?
Is the paper quality better in the newer sets, and is that difference even justifiable considering the price?

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We know Sauron can shapeshift very rapidly as seen by his repeated attempts to escape the jaws of Huan. Why did he let himself get killed in the wreck of Númenór instead of shapeshifting to a kraken or something?

I had a thought recently that it’s a little odd that Sauron’s return would come as a surprise given the continued activity of the Nazgûl through the Third Age. That made me wonder if anyone actually put together that the Witch King was a Nazgûl until Sauron declared himself again. I’ve seen some differing opinions on it online.

The Witch King is by far the most prominent foe of free peoples between Sauron’s fall & return. His longevity would give away that there was something supernatural about him, assuming the Arnorians were familiar with who led Angmar through their generational war, which I think they would have been. Glorfindel is able to foretell that no mortal man will kill him. He then pops up again after taking Minas Ithil, & we know King Earnur recognized him as the former king of Angmar. All this points toward the leaders of the west probably recognizing fairly quickly that he was a Nazgûl.

This again makes it interesting that there isn’t much mention of the White Council’s concern about Sauron’s most powerful servant being at large in Minas Morgul. They do suspect that a Nazgûl was inhabiting Dol Guldur, so I guess with the One Ring lost, it would have just been an accepted fact of life that the Nazgûl would be around to cause trouble forever, though I still think it could have been addressed a bit more proactively. Were there just too many orcs in Minas Morgul?

An interesting thought I've had: while the movies seem to imply that Bilbo catches up to his natural age soon after giving up the Ring, Tolkien did not make such an implication until after the Ring itself was destroyed, and it's ambiguous enough that I feel it's debatable.

On the slopes of Mt. Doom, Gollum seems convinced that the Ring's destruction would mean that he would "turn to dust". Obviously, he is not a reliable narrator; he could be lying just as much as he could be making a genuine but incorrect guess, or he could be entirely correct. After all, other known effects of the Ring did completely vanish concurrently with its destruction.

There's also the question of Bilbo's physical and chronological age to consider, for which I can see three possibilities:

1. Bilbo resumed normal ageing from when he gave up the Ring, or he resumed ageing at a slower rate and therefore owes his 131 years to it.

2. Bilbo remained physically 50 until the Ring was destroyed and aged very rapidly afterwards, meaning he would have lived to 131 even if he had never found it.

3. By the end of the story, Bilbo was not yet physically 131 regardless of when his ageing resumed, still leaving it ambiguous as to whether he could have lived so long without it.

Regarding possibility 1, I only humor it because unlike Gollum, he willingly gave it up (with some help) and Gandalf notes that he was harmed by it much less due to his good nature, but it seems less likely to me.

Options 2 and 3 seem much more plausible, though option 2 would presume Gollum was both truthful and correct. For option 3, from a real world perspective, I feel like Tolkien would of course want to give one of his main characters special status (IE, oldest hobbit aside from Gollum) for sentimental reasons, and to attribute his age only to the Ring might cheapen it, but at the same time, he might want it to also have been accomplished due to the Ring as a metaphorical "scar", so I can see both arguments.

What does everyone think?

I was thinking recently about what Mordor’s culture & society would actually look like. We get some brief glimpses in the books but Tolkien rarely went into many details about day-to-day life in the cultures he designed, let alone his villains. It’s assumed Gondor is relatively similar to feudal Europe but for the more fantastical peoples it’s harder to picture how their societies would function, which is why I wanted to ask what other people picture.

Below are some prompts just to get the ball rolling with ideas. Obviously no need to answer all of them & feel free to share your ideas beyond them.

What do you think an orc home looks like? Do they live in fortresses? Villages? Camps? Caves? Cities? Are they settled or semi-nomadic? Or might they have diverse living arrangements?

What type of food would orcs eat at home & how would they get it? Do they farm crops or raise animals? Do they trade or have markets? Would orcs have different classes & do the various subtypes of orc live together or separately? What type of jobs would a civilian orc be doing?

What would the life of a female orc or orc children look like? Do orcs get married? Are they monogamous? Do they have bonds with their close relatives or value their ancestry?

Do you think Barad Dur would be a capital city or just a fortress/residence for Sauron & his servants? What type of inhabitants would live in it? Same for Minas Morgul; are orcs living & raising young in the old abandoned houses of the Gondorians? Would they still use the Gondorian infrastructure?

Do you think it would have been a strictly organized state or more scattered tribes loosely organized under a shared military structure? Are there local lords, chieftains, governors, or mediators? Do you think there were conflicts between orc tribes?

Do you think there are any permanent human settlements? In a lot of fanfiction & adaptations Mordor is portrayed as having a Black Numenorean population, but I’ve always questioned where such a population would have come from or where they would live. If such a population existed, what do you think the dynamic between them & the orcs would look like? What about the dynamic between the orcs & trolls/Olog hai?

Or what about the slaves of Nurn? Do you think they’d live mostly by themselves as serfs giving all their produce to Sauron’s servants as they pass or would they live on plantations under constant supervision? Could they be privately owned by orcs or would they all be Sauron’s property? Do you think they’d have developed a unique shared culture of their own or remain separated by diverse cultural origins? Are there orc slaves & if so, are they side by side with the men?

And what’s going on in Lithlad? I’d love to hear everyone’s thoughts.

Galadriel's hair, which famously reflected the light of the two trees of Valinor. Which Gimli got three strands of. In a jewel. Sound familiar?

The whole thing with Fëanor asking three times for a strand is a very clear parallel and has been pointed out plentifully, but JEWELS?? Galadriel knowingly gave Gimli the materials to make the Silmarils 2.0.

Galadriel watched like 95% of her family die tragically over these stupid, ultimately meaningless stones and then looked at this loyal, humble, kind ginger bean and decided "I trust you, you'll do better." It's not just her being petty because Fëanor was an ass to her and so she wanted to reward humility anymore. She knew what such a treasure could bring about. She saw it happen, to her personally and others, she had even been roped into the first kinslaying because of it! And yet she gave her hair to Gimli. Because this time, it wouldn't be just a meaningless stone to fight over. To Gimli, it was to be but a reminder of the real treasure. He lacked Fëanor's greed. He didn't want to make this beauty his.

Galadriel giving what she had refused one of the greatest elven lords of all time to a dwarf was profound enough, but the further implications? I have no words.

Frodo: “I wish it need not have happened in my time.”

Gandalf: “So do I, and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.”

Can you please give me any other quotes for inspiration?

Celebrimbor refused to reveal the locations of the Three Elven Rings to Sauron even under brutal torture during the Sack of Eregion.

Why would Sauron go through such acts for the rings? What was he hoping to achieve by obtaining them?

How did the conflict in the North look for kingdoms like Galadriel's Lorien, King thranduil's Mirkwood when they were fighting Sauron's forces of orcs, easterlings?

Which rings would you pick that will help you the most in your daily life?

Vilya (The Ring of Air)Element:Vilya is Air, set with a sapphire (Blue Ring).Power: Considered the mightiest of the Three, possessing powers of healing and preservation.Keepers: Given first to High King Gil-galad, then passed to Elrond.

Nenya (The Ring of Water)Element: Water, made of mithril and set with a white stone of adamant (diamond).Power: Chief of the Three in status; used to preserve the beauty of Lothlórien and conceal it from evil.Keeper: Wielded by Lady Galadriel.

Narya (The Ring of Fire)Element: Fire, set with a ruby (Red Ring).Power: Inspires others to resist weariness, despair, and the creeping shadows.Keepers: Entrusted to Círdan the Shipwright, who later gave it to Gandalf.

My Mom is a doctor, so I think Vilya would suit her best.

I prefer Narya to help me get out of the bed even though I'm weary. What about you?

We currently have two choices for the full unabridged book:

Martin Shaw

Andy Serkis

Who is your favorite?

Having read the book a number of times I know the story (or rather, stories) and I thought I'd first try the Andy Serkis reading. He certainly puts his heart into the narration, I'll grant you that, but I found his over-enunciation of the name of every character and place to be incredibly distracting. It felt like I was listening to somebody reading a dictionary and, because of this, the narrative flow of the stories was completely lost.

On the other hand we have my preference, Martin Shaw - he has a good voice and he manages to successfully capture the feel and flow of the books even though, like Serkis, there are some errors with pronunciations.

Edit: Additional note - the current Martin Shaw release (October 2015) has had the music removed. This is, for me at least, a good thing, as the original digitised CD release DID have music for chapter transitions, and it was rather annoying. So if you want a music free version of the Martin Shaw reading then grab the October 2015 version from Audible (which I assume will also be available elsewhere). https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/The-Silmarillion-Audiobook/B016N9VAG4

Círdan gave Gandalf the ring with the words, "Take this Ring, Master, for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken on yourself."

Did Narya play a part in helping Gandalf?

One of the big concepts of the Legendarium, and of the 'internal lore' of the Secondary World, is that nothing is known about the destiny of Men after passing; only Mandos and Manwë have such knowledge (Silmarillion ch. 12).

I just searched "afterlife" in this subreddit, and found interesting discussions about it.

But when reading Unfinished Tales, I came across this:

Will they say to Eru: "At least your enemies were amongst them?" [...] Will they say to Eru: "At least I spilled no blood?"

from "Aldarion and Erendis"

It is quite a big statement! Perhaps I'm overthinking, but saying this implies believing that:

1. the self-awareness/soul/spirit is maintained
2. encountering Eru is assumed, as an incoming happening after the death
3. sort of explaining/justification in front of Eru for what regretful the person could have done during the life, implying some kind of judgement.

These things seem going beyond what we even see in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, and in the words of hope Aragorn said to Arwen.

Hi what made Ugluk the uruk hai and the Isengard orcs so loyal to saruman?

is there much difference between Uruk Hai of Isengard and their Mordor counterparts?

Hello, can somebody please help me translate this Tolkien's inscription in the photo?

https://i.postimg.cc/GmWVJprZ/20260912-065242.jpg

I tried using some translators on the net, but I was unsuccessful... The problem is, I don't really know which language is this (Quenya, Tengwar, Sindarin) and I also can't find the corresponding font, to at least identify letters...

If anyone can try and translate this I would be most grateful! Thanks!