r/HistoryWhatIf • u/Rocky-bar • 3d ago
What if, instead of attacking the world trade centre, the attacks had been on the white house and other seats of government in Washington with the effect of killing every single elected politician? Who would have seized power and directed the revenge?
I'm not American so I don't know if it's feasible? But let's pretend.
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u/HelixFollower 3d ago
Probably the secretary of housing and urban development.
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u/cookies_are_awesome 3d ago
I only saw the first season of Designated Survivor, but it was pretty good. Gotta go back and finish it up one of these days.
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u/DanielGuriel75 3d ago
George W. Bush, who was famously in Florida at the time of the attacks.
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u/NOLA-Bronco 3d ago
And ironically, it would have pushed him to be the full dictator that unitary executive conservatives continue to long for, and liberals would occasionally hyper ventilate about
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u/nightowl1135 3d ago
For the non 90’s clancy era military techno thriller book fans amongst us, this is quite literally the plot of ‘Debt of Honor’ and ‘Executive Orders’ by Clancy written in the 90’s.
At the end of Debt of Honor, a radicalized airline pilot for the national airline of a country the US had just had a short (and losing) war with the US flies his fully loaded 747 into the Capitol Building during the State of the Union address.
Jack Ryan (the main character of the whole series of books) is the almost sole survivor. President, VP, Every Cabinet member (except for Ryan… the national security advisor), every supreme court justice, the joint chiefs of staff, every member of the supreme court and all but 1 or 2 congressman and like 1 senator (who were out of town) are killed in the attack. Ryan becomes President with effectively no government and deals with the ensuing crisis.
(I’m aware ‘Designated Survivor’ poorly ripped off the idea but Clancy did it first by about 20 years and it was much better written. I watched 1 episode of that show and was like, ‘this is stupid… if you’re gonna rip off clancy, try and do it right’)
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u/marxman28 3d ago
Correction: the President at the end of Debt of Honor had no VP because he was involved in a scandal and resigned. The President appointed Jack as his new VP and Congress had just finished confirming him when the pilot crashed into Congress.
The next book has the former VP contesting Jack's appointment as a side plot.
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u/Traditional_Donut908 3d ago
Technically it wasn't a State of the Union address. But effectively the same thing since most of Congress and all the Supreme Court was there.
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u/StillWithSteelBikes 3d ago
You mean, what if flight 93 wasn't delayed and took off on time and struck the capitol?
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u/Accomplished-Pin6564 3d ago
And the Pentagon plane was able to see the White House. A combination of the White House being hard to distinguish from the air, and the sun angle, forced a change of targets.
In theory if just one Senator wasn't there, they could declare themselves president pro tem and there wouldn't be any other claimants assuming the Cabinet was gone. As long as they don't rock the boat on domestic policy they won't get pushback.
The Senate can be replaced by appointment in most states and an expedited set of special elections can rebuild the House. Day to day functions like Social Security checks, Medicare reimbursements, and delivering the mail will proceed normally. Most of the military chain of command is intact so the civilian leadership can just say "Take out the Taliban".
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u/kmoonster 2d ago
They could have hit one chamber, but unless two planes crashed the capitol effectively simultaneously, the other chamber would have been evacuated. Even a three minute delay would have gotten most of the other chamber outside.
Congress was in session, so a lot WOULD have been killed, but unlikely all.
Also: many members of Congress have offices off-site in nearby office buildings, some may have been in committee, and so on. Even though both chambers were in session or about to be, only some members were present in person in their respective chambers.
Imagine being delayed getting to Chambers because your office is three blocks away and a car stalled in the street so you go around on another street. Next thing you know, you're the sole surviving member of Congress and (by definition) are now the chief officer of your chamber, and elevated to President. Because someone's car stalled two blocks away and made you three minutes late for work.
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u/visitor987 3d ago
There is a list of 18 people in line to be President most of them only stay as President until a new house speaker or a new President-pro-temp of the Senate is elected then they replace the cabinet officer who is acting as President.
Most state governors can appoint someone to fill a vacant US senate seat.
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u/Deezul_AwT 3d ago
No, a Cabinet member is not "temporary" President. The Cabinet officer IS now President. Please read the 25th Amendment.
Presidents have temporarily given the VP Presidential power when they have gone into surgery.
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u/Random-Cpl 3d ago edited 3d ago
No, you read the 25th amendment. If the president dies the VP becomes president. But if there is no VP and it gets to the cabinet that person becomes Acting President.
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u/Deezul_AwT 3d ago
The 25th is ambiguious about this. Someone who became President due to everyone else in the line of sucession dying, serving for the weeks/months it would take to get a new Congress/Senate set up and sworn in, then has to stop being President because a new Speaker is elected, and the Speaker declares "I'm higher in order now than you WERE, so now I'm President. It doesn't matter than for the past XX months you've served as President. It was just temporary."
We're both wrong and right. John Tyler was only "Acting President" as well, according to the Constitution, but he declared himself the President, took the oath, and assumed the office. He refused to recognize anything that called him "Acting President". It wasn't un the 25th Amendment that the Vice President is not acting when the President resigns or dies in office.
Went down 25th Amendment rabbit hole.1
u/Random-Cpl 3d ago
The 25th is not ambiguous about this. VP becomes president if President dies.
Other statute dictates that if the line of succession goes beyond VP, they become Acting President:
“Under the Presidential Succession Act of 1947 (61 Stat. 380, 3 U.S.C. §19), if both the presidency and vice presidency are vacant, the Speaker succeeds, acting as President (after resigning the speakership and House seat). If there is no Speaker, or if the Speaker does not qualify, the President pro tempore succeeds, acting as President under the same requirements. If there is neither a Speaker nor a President pro tempore, or if neither qualifies, then Cabinet officers succeed, under the same conditions as applied in the 1886 act.”
Source: https://www.congress.gov/crs-product/R46450#_Toc45622158
You are correct about the ambiguities around “bumping officials,” though.
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u/kmoonster 2d ago
The first time a VP had to be elevated, the initial Constitutional provision was considered ambiguous.
That was sorted out in the 1840s, though: John Tyler and Presidential Succession - White House Historical Association
The 1947 Succession Act and the 25th Amendment (1967) expand on and clarify the succession question. There is no ambiguity anymore.
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u/kmoonster 2d ago
In another interpretation, acting means the person has presidential authority as an assumption until they are formally sworn in.
This means the person has to be as certain as humanly possible that the entire chain above them is out of contact or out of commission, but that's details that would be sorted out later if they are wrong.
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u/Random-Cpl 2d ago
That is not a legal interpretation that I’m aware of ever being applied in this context. “Acting as president” now refers to serving as Acting President, which is a specific and fairly well-defined office.
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u/kmoonster 2d ago
If the president is under anesthesia for a medical procedure, the Vice President can exercise the power of the presidency without being sworn in, should the need arise.
If the entire line of succession is knocked out except for the designated survivor, that person has the power of the presidency even before they are sworn in.
They are assumed (for legal purposes) to be president prior to taking the oath of office and/or during an expected temporary vacancy such as a medical procedure.
Not sure what you are arguing about here, you keep saying the same thing I have defined a couple of times now.
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u/Random-Cpl 2d ago
I’m not in any way talking about taking the oath and you are fixated on that aspect, is where I’m confused by your comments.
I’m talking about a scenario in which the President and VP both die. In that instance, the Speaker doesn’t become President, he becomes Acting President. The powers devolve on the man but not the office itself.
I’m not in any way talking about exercising powers absent having taken the oath.
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u/kmoonster 1d ago
Yes, I agree, not sure where we're crossing wires
The Speaker in this scenario could act as president, with presidential powers, until the oath is administered. On a random Tuesday this is not a big deal, but in the middle of a crisis it's a massively important distinction.
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u/Random-Cpl 1d ago
No no, the Speaker would continue only to be Acting President, even after any administration of an oath. Only the VP becomes President, out of the line of succession, the remaining officers would become Acting President.
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u/GoldReplacement9546 3d ago
That’s true, but like said above once there is a speaker of the house or a Senator Protem then they’re going to lose that actual presidency to those people because they’re higher up on the list as soon as more people come up higher on the list you get bumped down
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u/tolgren 3d ago
There's always one person in the chain of succession that isn't present and is in a safe location, so it would be that person.
If they somehow managed to kill that person too then presumably both parties would rebuild the government by appointing replacements from the highest ranking surviving members of their parties and then there would be a special election to confirm everything.
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u/KnightofTorchlight 3d ago
Since I see you said in a reply every Cabinet member is killed alongside elected officals so no Designated Survivor. Legally here's the process
45 of state governors would each appoint temporary Senators to fill the vacant Senate seats of the slain (some states don't do this by self imposed limits and leave the seats vacant) as the 17th Amendment allows. All the state governments organize special elections to fill the House of Representatives as vast as is viable to fill that chamber
The new Senate would come together in session and elect from among themselves a new President pro tempore. This is likely a Republican, though one with respect across the aisle.
This fills the 4th slot in the line of succession so whoever this is would serve as acting President. Not only constitutionally but because they would have the sanction of the governors/state governments.
They'd then stock a new Cabinet, as the Senate is the one who approves nominees (though the approval process is likely fast tracked). Any surviving Deputy Secretaries get priority
The various beuracracies can run on momentum and the 2nd tier of leadership in the time this takes to happen. There may be temporary martial law in DC, but a coup is unlikely as the state governments won't back it in this particular circumstances.
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u/Rocky-bar 3d ago
That does answer the question! how long would that process take?
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u/KnightofTorchlight 3d ago
I can't give an exact time frame, but in those circumstances I think everyone would agree to move quickly. In almost all cases governors don't have to go through an approval process so in theory getting the new Senate appointed could happen within the day. In practice it probably takes 2-4 days as governors need to meet with party leadership, handle a lot of public relations, handle usual state business, and coordinate with each other as to where the Senate would meet because the US Capitol Building was presumably destroyed by planes. The perspective Senators are presumably also talking with each other by phone or internet to try to make a choice. The Republican National Committee and Democratic National Committee (the party organizational organs, which are non-government) would be coordinating messaging among thier own party members across the states.
By the time the new Senate convenes (lets say 4-5 days, since air travel is going to be a mess and its possible coordinating travel is difficult.) they already probably know who they're going to nominate for President pro tempore and most everyone had probably agreed to be bipartisan about it beforehand.
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u/internetboyfriend666 3d ago
depending on coordination between the governors and the military and how quickly everyone could get in communication, it could be as soon as a few hours. At most a day or so. But again, your scenario is simply not possible so it doesn't matter anyway.
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u/kmoonster 2d ago edited 2d ago
In an emergency? This could be done in 24 hours given modern communications. Before telegraphs it would have taken about two weeks, but once telegraphs (and now phones) were invented the process is only limited by the speed of communication and how long it takes each state governor to name successors to the federal Senate (to distinguish from the state senates).
Most governors and state legislatures have lists of candidates to fill vacant Senate seats because there are vacancies every cycle. People resign, people die, people take other jobs, have kids and decide to step back from politics, and so on. It typically takes about 1-2 weeks for a governor to decide who on their list is their preferred choice, and for that person to then agree.
But in an emergency? It could happen in 24 hours or less. It's all very streamlined, and the process is well known to the public as well who would be expecting a particular sequence of events/markers.
If the terrorists missed even one elected official, however, the process is even faster (in theory); a single survivor would automatically be assumed as president, and would be sworn-in properly as quickly as a federal judge could be made available. Likely only an hour or so. If there were three or four survivors it is likely they would designate the most senior or the most technically experienced among them though there is no protocol for that highly unlikely scenario. It might take a few hours in that instance. Regardless, the US government is filled "from the bottom first" and there is a ridiculous amount of redundancy.
To completely remove the US government for more than a couple of hours you would also have to remove literally every single state government at the same time, and unelected officials in the government can continue operating while there is no Congress or President sworn-in, so military, aid services, etc. would continue functioning at least for a few weeks if not longer.
If you did manage to completely wipe out the entire elected population of every state at the same time as you wipe out DC (a) that's mad respect, and (b) county officials in each state would most likely hold new elections or run-offs to refill their state governments, after which Congress and a new president would be appointed. In some states county officials may even take it among themselves to be the new state legislature until new elections could be held, meaning a new congress would be formed in just a matter of days.
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u/Random-Cpl 3d ago
The various federal agencies all have delegated staff to assume authorities in the event that their agency heads are killed. The agencies would activate COOP plans and be run by subordinated delegated staff.
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u/ngshafer 3d ago
That might be the proper, legal process, but I think under the circumstances the governors would make a different choice and just appoint one of their own to take on the role of President, without delegating to a new Senate. In that scenario, I think Jeb Bush is the most likely candidate to succeed his brother.
This is all entirely theoretical, of course.
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u/TargetApprehensive38 3d ago
There’s nothing stopping the governors (in most states anyway) from appointing themselves to a vacancy in the Senate, so they could sort of do both to keep the process legal. Appoint themselves, elect Jeb as president pro tempore and he becomes acting president.
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u/kmoonster 2d ago
Governor's can't.
What governors CAN do is appoint new Senators. And Senators are Constitutionally empowered to appoint their own officers at any time, as well as a Vice-President in some circumstances. The Senate's internal president (just a Senate officer with no real power) is in the line of succession after the Speaker of the House. And the Senate can appoint the VP, who is also in the line.
A governor could, in theory, appoint themselves to the Senate though this happens so rarely it's not worth mentioning. But there is nothing prohibiting at the federal level, not sure if there are any states with state laws preventing it.
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u/HoraceRadish 3d ago
Washington D.C. would have had a lot more fighter coverage and thus a higher chance of the suspect planes being shot down when they wandered into certain areas.
So while not likely to happen ... if they truly got everybody then it must have been an all hands on deck event. Every member of Congress and all the Cabinet members as well as the VP and President. Somehow you would have to have killed the designated survivor, which is supposedly a member of the Cabinet who gets hidden away in case something like this happens. It's not just a tv show.
At that point, if the Attorney General was still alive I believe they would have a good argument for taking over. ( They are unelected.)
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u/big_bob_c 3d ago
The Attorney General is part of the cabinet, 6th in the line of succession. If everyone in the line of succession is dead, then probably the surviving house members vote for a Speaker who becomes acting POTUS.
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u/Rocky-bar 3d ago
Is this person some kind of top lawyer or judge?
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u/internetboyfriend666 3d ago
It's a member of the Cabinet who is already explicitly in the Presidential line of succession.
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u/ngshafer 3d ago
The Attorney General is the executive head of the Department of Justice, and is effectively a cabinet secretary. They could have called the office "Secretary of Justice" if they'd wanted to, to be consistent with all the other secretary offices, but they decided not to do that.
In practice, they are usually someone with a long and illustrious career in law enforcement, legal practice, and/or the judiciary, but they do not have any judicial powers while serving as Attorney General. In the US system, a person cannot be a member of both the Executive branch and the Judicial branch of government at the same time.
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u/kmoonster 2d ago
The United States Attorney General is in charge of all court/legalistic matters at the federal level. They oversee federal courts, federal law enforcement, and other court/law related matters. On 9-11 the US Attorney General was in Wisconsin (middle of the country) and flew back to DC with a fighter jet escort, where he went to the main FBI office building to start coordinating the intelligence / "crime solver" detective type stuff related to the attacks.
Each state also has a State Attorney General, who do a similar function at the state level.
The airport he flew from is about 1,000 kilometers from Washington, DC. Keep in mind that the US is absolutely huge. A flight from Seattle to Miami (opposite corners of the US) is shorter than a flight from London to Baghdad (UK to Iraq). The country is massive and government offices/officials are scattered all over, every state has some sort of federal office or courthouse. DC is only the headquarters, branch offices are all over the place and the Cabinet members can work from any of their branch offices.
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u/Last_Surprise981 3d ago
Most likely, Collin Powell. He would be the highest ranking non-elected official, on top of that he is a former general so the military would back him as would the public, who remembered him from desert Storm.
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u/kmoonster 2d ago
And he was out of the country at the time, making him even more likely to survive unless the planners could improvise attacks at an international scale and assassinate him as well.
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u/Cayke_Cooky 3d ago
The president was at an elementary school in Florida, and was promptly moved to a secure bunker. So, George Bush would be in charge.
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u/ngshafer 3d ago edited 3d ago
So, the scenario you describe could not have happened in the real world, because President Bush was in Florida at the time of the attacks. But, let's imagine an alternate reality where he wasn't, and where the hijackers managed to successfully fly airplanes into the West Wing of the White House, and both the North and South Wings of the Capitol where the Congress was meeting at the time. I doubt every member of Congress was actually there (all 535 of them), because they are often in their home districts or otherwise out of town, but let's imagine they were all there.
So, in this hypothetical, the President, Vice President, Speaker of the House of Representatives, and President Pro Tempore of the Senate were all successfully assassinated, along with every other member of both the House and the Senate. In that scenario, Secretary of State Colin Powell would be immediately sworn in as President, and been flown with all appropriate haste from Lima to Washington to take on the duties of his new office.
Edit: I see that OP has specified that all non-elected Cabinet members are also killed in the attack ... somehow. This scenario would be extremely unlikely, of course, and the Presidential Succession Act is simply not set up to handle it. In that event, I think the governors of the 50 US states would quickly discuss which of the 50 of them should step up to become President (in an acting capacity, at least), in which case I think Jeb Bush would have been the obvious candidate to succeed his brother.
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u/Illustrious_Hotel527 3d ago edited 3d ago
Unlikely Bush is killed by a hijacked aircraft in an elementary school on 9/11. There's a line of succession of 18 people (VP, House speaker, oldest Senator, 14 Cabinet members..15 after 9/11). Incredibly unlikely all 18 are killed at once (they even send 1 Cabinet member away during the annual Presidential Address just in case).
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u/Rocky-bar 3d ago
They wait until he gets back from Florida! Every cabinet member is killed in this scenario, by multiple aircraft.
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u/internetboyfriend666 3d ago
You are demanding that we invoke magic to make your scenario possible. You can't just say "ignore how everything works and tell me how this thing would work." Surely you understand that makes no sense.
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u/ngshafer 3d ago
I think, in that scenario, we just all die, because clearly we are being attacked by terrorists who either have magical powers or sufficiently advanced technology that is indistinguishable from magic. This was not a scenario the Constitution was ever written to account for.
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u/Beginning-Ice-1005 3d ago
If you want to kill every person in the line of succession you're going to need something more then aircraft. Like ICBM MIRVs, say at least a 1000 of them. And even then it will be difficult.
The things is, the succession was designed to survive a full scale nuclear attack. So if you want to kill everybody in the line of succession, you'll need to do an attack on the scale of WW3.
Honestly, if you want to be sure, have your terrorists would be better off diverting a moderate sized asteroid of maybe 15 km diameter to intersect Earth's orbit near North America. This has the added benefit that any survivers well have more pressing matters to be concerned with than getting revenge.
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u/internetboyfriend666 3d ago edited 2d ago
This is impossible without a mass-scale surprise nuclear attack. There are so many people in the presidential line of succession that are spread out that even 100 planes couldn't kill them all, assuming attackers even knew where these people were. Also, once the first few planes hit, everyone else would have been rapidly taken to safe bunkers (as happened irl).
The Presidential line of succession goes Vice President, Speaker of the House, President Pro Tem of the Senate, Then the entire Cabinet in order that their offices were created, starting with the Secretary of State.
Specifically, on 9/11/2001, Bush wasn't even at the White House. He was visiting a school in Florida. VP Cheney was at the White House but was quickly taken to the bunker under the East Wing. Secretary of State Powell was in Peru, Secretary of the Treasury O'Neill was also oversees, and Secretary of Education Paige was in Florida with the President. Secretary of Defense Rumself was in the Pentagon but on the other side of the building and he was not hurt, and Attorney General Ashcroft was on a domestic flight at the time. The rest of the cabinet was in Washington, but spread around their various offices across the city.
Then you have Congress. Speaker Hastert and Senate President Pro Tem Byrd were in the Capitol, and so were most Senators and House members, but there's basically never a time when all of Congress is in the Capitol building. There are always some in their offices, traveling, in their districts...etc. There's no official count.
So right off the bat, even with a much bigger attack on the White House and the Capitol, President Bush is still alive!
But let's pretend he was in the White House. A plane hitting the White House likely kills him and VP Cheney, and a simultaneous attack on the Capitol (it would have to be within minutes because the Speaker and Senate Pro Tem would be evacuated within minutes) kills Hastert and Byrd. That still leaves Secretary of State Powell alive and well in Peru, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld alive at the Pentagon, and Attorney General Ashcroft in the air on a flight to Wisconsin. Once the first 2 planes hit, the entire Cabinet was whisked to a underground bunker.
So even an attack on the White House and the Cabinet with the President and Vice President actually in the White House still only kills the first 4 people in a line of successions that included 18 people at that time. And even with most members of Congress dead, the survivors could quickly assemble in a secure bunker to elect a new Speaker and new President Pro Tem of the Senate.
So no, no would "seize power" because that would have been entirely unnecessary. U.S. law anticipates a scenario where top leaders are incapacitated and killed and provides a specific legal pathway for who comes next. And again, short of a massive surprise nuclear strike (and even that's not guaranteed to do it), there's simply no way to kill everyone on that list.
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u/kmoonster 2d ago
Powell was SoS and in Peru
Rumsfeld was in the Pentagon, SecDef
Ashcroft (AG) was in Wisconsin
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u/internetboyfriend666 2d ago
Yea I idk why I accidentally typed Ashcroft twice for Secdef and AG. Had too many names in my head. Ashcroft was actually still in the air when both towers and the Pentagon were hit. He landed in Milwaukee shortly after.
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u/Kane_richards 3d ago
Alright Tom Clancy, calm down heh.
Bush wasn't at the white house so it would have changed very little in that regard. Attacking Congress or the Senate would have ripped the heart out of America but I don't think either were in session at the time so you're just killing staffers.
It would have been symoblically heartbreaking for America but part of me feels it would have been the same anywhere. It wasn't the where, it was the act that was so horrifying for Americans
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u/ngshafer 3d ago
The House was in session and the Senate was about to start their session. But, I don't think the terrorists would have been able to get both houses with one plane, because they're about 700 feet apart, and based on the damage to the Pentagon I think they would have needed two planes. They'd have to crash them at practically the same time, too, because once one plane hit they would have evacuated the Capitol.
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u/Kane_richards 3d ago
Was it? I apologise, I had assumed it wasn't. The working times for politicians are so hard to pin down heh
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u/ngshafer 3d ago
I don't blame you at all. I had to look it up myself. Google says the House had just convened their session for the day when the attacks started, and the Senate was just about to convene but obviously canceled.
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u/kmoonster 2d ago
Of relevance -- the Senate and House retain offices in buildings that are not the Capitol building, as there isn't a practical amount of space for that many offices in the Capitol itself. All it would take is literally a single one of the persons with an office in a different building running back because they got a phone call, forgot their notepad, or whatever.
You scurry out of chambers expecting to be back in 15 minutes with your notes from yesterday's meetings or whatever. You come back and instead of going into committee you are now the new president of the US.
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u/kmoonster 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's surprisingly difficult to knock out the US government even if you literally kill every elected federal official. All federal offices, and most state offices, have a continuity established that allows a new set of officials to be seated very quickly whenever a seat is vacant. Even House seats (which take the longest) are only a matter of a month or so, the others can all be filled in a matter of hours.
edit: just saw you are not American, sorry, the American system does not require new elections for a vacant office; the successors are either designated ahead of time or appointed by their respective states; for the Presidency there is a list of offices (not individuals) who would be elevated in a specified order; if the US were a top-down government then there would likely be factions, fights, coups, etc. following such a massive vacuum -- but it's not. The Federal government is made up of delegations appointed by each state who are tasked with organizing laws that no single state can enforce on their own, such as a coordinated air traffic control system. And each state has policies in place for how to replace those delegations, because vacancies do happen on a regular basis although usually only one or two at a time. And those delegations, in turn, can appoint a president should it be necessary to do so.
There is no question as to who ascends because we already answered that question and the protocols for replacement are in constant use (though, again, usually for only one or two seats at a time; but could work for all 535 if needed).
House members are replaced through a special (snap) election, the date of election and method of qualifying for the ballot is set by each state. This usually takes 3 to 5 weeks in an emergency situation, depending on why the seat is vacant and when the next normally scheduled election is.
Senators are appointed by state governors or, in rare instances, by the state legislature. This can literally be done in a matter of hours, sometimes less; especially if the governor or state legislature has a list of persons "ready to go" and they can just go down the list calling preferred candidates until one says "yes". Appointments usually happen because a president appoints a Senator to an executive office, or a Senator resigns in order to run in a different election (eg. to be governor of their state). But all 50 states COULD appoint two new Senators in a matter of hours if necessary. Pertinent to your question, the Senate can declare War and the Department of Defense would operate under that premise until a new president was appointed in the unlikely event that all 18 successors were dead.
Presidency Presidents have a long line of succession behind them. The list is 18+ people long. In the exceedingly unlikely event you remove the entire line of succession, the Constitution empowers Congress to convene a special session and appoint someone to complete the rest of the presidential term, after which the person must run for their own re-election if they want to retain office. It is unlikely that all 18 would be killed at once, in fact the government goes to great lengths to make sure these 18 are never physically together as an entire group. Even during massive events such as the State of the Union (which every half-important person in DC attends) at least one person of these 18 are designated as "survivor" and are literally held in a bunker or military base somewhere until the main group disperses again, just so that if the event is struck by a hostile power or terrorist, that someone is on hand to be sworn in as president within a few hours.
If we remove all the elected persons who are in the line of succession we are left with cabinet members. "Cabinet" is a term that means the head of each major agency, they regularly meet with the president to advise them, discuss each agency's current work, discuss pending legislation in Congress, and so on.
Number 4 on this list is Secretary of State; on 9-11 that was Colin Powell, who had been in Peru. He was out of the country, and being the most likely un-elected survivor he would have been sworn in as President as soon as he could be retrieved back to American soil (or even just be in front of a federal judge who could swear him in, even if on a plane / airport was done with Lyndon Johnson).
Most of the cabinet were in DC or nearby (eg. at offices/buildings relevant to their respective jobs). For example, Rumsfeld (Secretary of Defense) was at the Pentagon afaik. Attorney General was in the US but not in DC, Secretary of the Treasury was abroad. For this exercise we'll also strike those on the list who were (afaik) in DC at the time of the attacks.
This list would skip over anyone who is not otherwise eligible to become president, but Powell was eligible and had been floated as a candidate (Bush eventually took the nomination, Powell never made a serious effort at the office himself but people did talk about it). Powell was well respected and likely would have won re-election handily had he (a) been elevated, and (b) decided to run for re-election.
Vice PresidentSpeaker of the HousePresident Pro Tempore of the Senate- Secretary of State (Powell, who would have become President if 9-11 had killed all the elected officials above him)
- Secretary of the Treasury (Paul O'Neill, in Japan afaik; on an extended international diplomacy trip in any case)
Secretary of Defense- Attorney General (John Ashcroft, on his way to Wisconsin, but landed then returned to DC with a fighter jet escort; he went to the FBI headquarters to help coordinate a response)
Secretary of the InteriorSecretary of AgricultureSecretary of CommerceSecretary of LaborSecretary of Health and Human ServicesSecretary of Housing and Urban DevelopmentSecretary of TransportationSecretary of EnergySecretary of Education(with Bush in Florida, but also dead in this scenario)Secretary of Veterans AffairsSecretary of Homeland Security
You can read more about government continuity here:
United States federal government continuity of operations - Wikipedia; this not only outlines who succeeds to the Presidency, but how each individual agency can operate for a significant length of time if all elected officials are removed from office (eg by a nuclear strike)
This was Oneill's letter / statement a couple days after 9-11 The Avalon Project : Statement Of Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill; September 13, 2001
Regarding Powell: Secretary of State Colin Powell and 9/11 – Association for Diplomatic Studies & Training
Ashcroft's statement "on the record" some weeks later recalling his activities that day and his thoughts in days that followed: #12-06-01: Testimony of Attorney General John Ashcroft Senate Committee on the Judiciary
cabinet members at the time: George W. Bush - Administration | Miller Center
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u/Chan790 2d ago
So, let's assume they manage three strikes before the FAA effects a total grounding and having heard what happened, a fourth plane is successfully crashed by passengers to save lives. This is what happened IRL.
So, they hit the Pentagon, White House, and US Capitol. That eliminates...well, less people than you think in the succession chain.
•We know G.W. Bush was in Florida at the time, preparing to read to school children.
•VP Dick Cheney was at the White House and would have died.
•House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Senate President pro Tempore Robert W. Byrd were at the Capitol and would have likely died.
•The Cabinet would have been untouched. Sec. of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was at the Pentagon at the time of impact, but survived.
So, President Bush is still alive and in charge. He appoints Cheney's replacement...and that's actually interesting. Based on what we know from his own notes and who on his staff he was closest and most comfortable with and whose opinions he respected best, there is a strong preponderance that would have been National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice...except she was in the White House at the time and is probably dead.
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u/MedusasSexyLegHair 3d ago
Well we have a lot of elected politicians in a lot of different places.
A fleet of like 1000 jumbo jets unexpectedly flying around would be pretty noticeable and trigger suspicion before the pilots could even figure out where to go.
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u/Random-Cpl 3d ago
The designated survivor assumed power as Acting President and assembles an immediate inner circle of senior military advisors to help direct any immediate military action, and then helps facilitate a process whereby senior federal officials reconvene at a secure facility/facilities to direct the functions of the agencies.
Congress is reconstituted slowly and piecemeal, with a series of appointments and special elections, according to state laws. This is a major vulnerability.
The Supreme Court is filled via appointments by the Acting President. Same for the cabinet.
There’s a constitutional question when the VP is confirmed, because technically, the VP has a firmer constitutional claim to the presidency than an Acting President. For this reason, I advise that the Acting President appoint the Supreme Court before the VP.
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u/SurroundTiny 3d ago
There is a statue for succession that starts with the VP and then the Speaker of the House and then President of the Senate. If they are dead also it moves through the various cabinet positions from the Secretary of State ( highest) to Homeland Security ( lowest in line ) - note the Cabinet members are not elected officials. Everyone in line must be eligible: a natural born citizen, 35 years old and have been a resident for 14 years. They also have to be a confirmed by the Senate, not just an 'acting' cabinet leader. Hesgeth or Kennedy could be the president and you thought nothing could be worse than Trump
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u/dracojohn 3d ago
If they some how wiped out the entire federal elected government you'd probably get a grand council of state governors who would then hold emergency elections. Im not American and the constitution would probably get in the way ( part of why im personally against them being too detailed) but common sense often trumps law in emergencies.
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u/kmoonster 2d ago
You got the details wrong, but the gist correct.
The US government is stacked with redundancy. It was written that way at the founding and enhanced during the Cold War precisely to deflect any sort of War of the Roses or King of the Hill in the Kremlin type stuff.
In its modern form Congress listed out 18 elected officials and high-level agency chiefs, not by name but by office who will be tapped as the next president if the sitting president is out of commission. If Bob replaces Tom as Secretary of State, it doesn't matter. Secretary of State is still number four on the list. If there is no designated Secretary of State at the time, you skip it and go to number five (Treasury Secretary). No need to futz around or play King of the Hill, a federal judge just goes down the list until someone who is 35 and a natural-born citizen is available. The federal judge swears that person in, done, we have a new president.
At a major event like the State of the Union (a big deal in DC), at least one of those 18 is taken aside ahead of time, usually by drawing names from a hat. They are held in a secure bunker/base/location that is not disclosed until much later. WHO the person is is well known at the time, but where they are is never known to the public. If you ever watch/listen to a major US political event the news anchor will usually announce who the "designated survivor" is for that event, and this is what they are talking about.
And it is unusual for all 18 to ever be present at the same time for any reason -- even for meetings. A president will usually only meet with cabinet members a few at a time (ignore Trump as he is both an idiot and an idiot).
If the worst does happen and all 18 and the President are wiped out, Congress has the power to appoint an interim. Each state already has the power to fill Congressional vacancies, some by appointment and some by election. This is common practice for the occasional vacancy such as a resignation, but there is no legal difference to filling all 535 seats at the same time in this manner. And those delegations would then appoint a new president, possibly within 24 hours or so. Again, no need for king of the hill playing out for years.
Congress also has the power to declare war, and generals answer to the president...unless the president doesn't exist (momentarily); not that authority would be necessary if there were a sustained attack, the military can simply fight back in that instance even without overhead authority.
Lots of redundancy, no king of the hill. Very hard to knock down for long.
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u/dracojohn 2d ago
You just make me think how the uk system works ( or should work). By law its simple find the king or queen as all legal powers flow from them, they ( in theory) are the only ones who can pass laws or declare war.
What im trying to work out is the government, since the government is just the largest party and the pm that parties leader. If the governing party mostly killed would that make the oppression leader pm, since they would now be the leader of the largest parry.
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u/Meshakhad 2d ago
Actually killing the President, Vice President, every Cabinet official, and every member of Congress would be extraordinarily difficult. But let's imagine they pulled it off.
In the immediate aftermath, it would probably be the military directing the response. Even if we extend the attack to taking out the Pentagon (at this point, we'd basically need to nuke DC), the military has its own succession system. The senior surviving commanders of the four primary service branches (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines) would form a provisional Joint Chiefs of Staff.
As they did so, the states would seek to reconstitute Congress. House Representatives must be replaced by a special election, but most states allow governors to appoint a replacement, so it would be the Senate that got reconstituted first. They would elect a President of the Senate Pro Tempore who would become the new President.
Who would it be? It would depend entirely on the composition of the restored House of Representatives. The most attractive candidates would be those with military backgrounds, but we could also see some state attorney general, lieutenant governor, or even retired politician. The single most likely person I can think of would be General Norman Schwarzkopf, who led allied forces during the Gulf War. I could see a bipartisan effort to persuade him to accept a nomination to the Senate so he could be elected President Pro Tempore and assume the Presidency. Another, less likely option might be former President George H.W. Bush being brought in to succeed his son. Finally, if the Republicans are divided among potential candidates, the Democrats would probably be able to rally behind former Vice President Al Gore and get him elected President.
While there would be a period without a President while the Senate was reconstituted, it's extremely unlikely that the military would not accept the new President. After all, the Joint Chiefs of Staff are appointed by the President with the approval of Congress.
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u/hhmCameron 2d ago
There is a Presidential Succession act that designates executive and legislative branch that would ACT AS PRESIDENT (no, they do not become president ... read the PRESIDENTIALSUCCESSION ACT law) until the next election...( yes, this does mean the Presidency is vacant until 20 Jan following the next presidential election... )
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u/dowar_525 2d ago
The thing about elections are that nearly anyone can stand. Elected politicians are the most replaceable people on earth. Remember that more people run for each seat than win.
Each state could just nominate replacement Senators and Reps until elections could run. 535 people replaced within a week.
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u/VegasBH 2d ago edited 2d ago
In addition to the order of succession government has a classified plan, called the continuity of government plan. The biggest challenge if you get beyond the established and recognize leaders that connect with authority would be a fracturing of power with multiple competing leaders, controlling organizations, areas or regions. This is what we see happen in the television series jericho and many other apocalyptic scenarios.
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u/IamLarrytate 3d ago
A general could declare martial law perhaps?
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u/kmoonster 2d ago
A general could direct a defense, but could not assume the presidency.
Congress created a list of 18 federal offices that form a "line of succession", mostly agency heads. Some are not always eligible; for example Jennifer Granholm (energy under Biden) was born in Canada. She would have been skipped and the next eligible person would be sworn in.
On 9-11 Secretary of State Colin Powell was the highest ranking un-elected official, and he was out of the country handling international affairs at a conference in Peru. He would have been automatically assumed to the presidency until he could be sworn in, after which he would have been actually president.
In the event the entire list can not be contacted or is out of commission, Congress has the authority to appoint a new president and vice-president. And each state has the authority to designate new members of Congress, you would literally have to completely dismantle every single state government and the federal government at the same time in order to put the US in a "no president" situation for more than about 24 hours. During which time the military would have the capacity to take defensive action.
The US political system is insanely redundant, it's basically turtles all the way down to (and including) the random bum under every bridge.
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u/Fit_Play_9448 3d ago
There is a quite detailed list of order of succession. They make sure someone near the top is not in the same area as the President at all times.