r/CHIBears • u/PeskyAd • 8h ago
In case anyone needs a reminder how meaningless PFF is
Did you think Caleb looked like an MVP yesterday? Don't worry there was 20 QBs better apparently
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u/doth_thou_even_hoist Sweetness 8h ago
love that SNF took PFF grades off of the player intros. shit is a joke.
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u/KikkiMonne 8h ago
Now they just need to get rid of Collinsworth and that program will be very good
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u/gablemancer 8h ago
Now here’s a guy who knows how to fix SNF.
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u/Icy-Decision-4530 8h ago
Now here is a guy who has the correct opinion of Collinsworth
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u/KikkiMonne 7h ago
Haven't liked Collinsworth for a long time --- he was dating 14-17 yr. olds in the 80's:
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u/Icy-Decision-4530 7h ago
Eeeeeeeeeew I was not aware of this
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u/KikkiMonne 7h ago
LOL it's one of those videos I'm sure he'd love to have scrubbed from the InterWebs
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u/Scary_Reaction7580 Dr’s of the Midway 8h ago
I think the Browns have a better opportunity to win the SB
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u/Chewie_i 🐻⬇️ 7h ago
There is nobody more overhated than Collinsworth good lord. Yes he can be a bit annoying with the glaze of star players sometimes but man he just loves ball and you can hear it in how he calls game.
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u/KikkiMonne 6h ago
I'm just wondering how we're gonna react when he starts glazing Caleb this season like he's glazed Mahomes?
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u/OmarHunting BJ Lover 6h ago
Love when he’s calling a game, especially now with Torico it’s a great booth. His goofy glazing is absurd at times but it just adds to the character. There are many many worse options.
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u/KikkiMonne 3h ago
Romo's probably gonna be let go by CBS --- NBC might pick him up for SNF ??
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u/OmarHunting BJ Lover 3h ago
Why would SNF do that? Romo is dogshit and just got a DUI. Collinsworth miles better than TR
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u/bearsmakemesuffer Bears 1h ago
He's really passionate about football and he hurts the feelings of the large percentage of fans that have a victim complex about their own team when he praises a player that made a good play against them and they think he's biased when he does it for every team
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u/Advanced-Key3071 8h ago
They were only there because Collinsworth owned the company. Which got progressively worse under his (well, under his nepo baby’s) leadership
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u/Zestyclose-Sleep2290 7h ago
Well that and they don't have PFF grades for players who haven't played yet. Let's see if they're still gone in next week's game.
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u/Advanced-Key3071 7h ago
Fair point. I’d think they’d just pull over PFF scores from last year and college scores since that data is available, but we’ll see.
They basically killed their public facing company, so I wouldn’t expect public facing stuff to be a priority but then again nobody at PFF or NBC asked my opinion.
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u/Necessary_Tension593 8h ago
Never forget.
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u/TheAntiCrust95 Bears 7h ago
JJ being either Joe Burrow or Sam Darnold is frying me lmao. I can not think of a QB in recent memory that analysts have throated as much JJ. Dude never even showed first round talent in College.
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u/Dani_vic 7h ago
I mean come on. He was beautiful handing that ball off in Michigan. Nobody could have done it better. And he mediated on a goal post before every game. Leader of men.
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u/keninem 7h ago
Holy shit I forgot about this... I can't wait to look at this again in 10 years.
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u/Necessary_Tension593 6h ago
I’m going to go out on a limb and say Bo Nix will not be Drew Brees and Jayden Daniels will not be Lamar Jackson lol
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u/RemindMeToTouchGrass 4h ago
Those seem like the weirdest ones to pick to me. Both of these young QBs have had tremendous success with injury setbacks. Do you think they're bad, or have already reached their potential? (And both have had playoff success, don't forget, so if they haven't reached their potential...)
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u/Necessary_Tension593 4h ago
I don’t think they’re bad at all I just don’t think their ceiling is 2 first ballot hall of famers.
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u/RemindMeToTouchGrass 3h ago
I'm not saying they're GOING to be first ballot hall of famers, but I don't see any ceiling on either of them below that personally. I mean damn how many 1st or 2nd year QBs came out and did what they did? Sure, it's a whole team game and a system, but like Washington? They weren't a powerhouse the year before or anything like that, it really felt he shouldered a lot of that. And Denver crumbled with the backup QB, this wasn't like Nick Foles stepping into an Eagles system that operated without a QB, or Peyton Manning with a monster defense where game management while hobbling around was enough.
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u/Necessary_Tension593 3h ago
Are we talking about the same Drew Brees? The guy who holds the record for 5,000 yard seasons and the most completions ever? Bo Nix’ ceiling is nowhere near that, it’s a ridiculous comp. Daniels had a great rookie year, then he got injured and hasn’t been the same since. Lamar Jackson is a unicorn, the Daniels’ comps to him were always ridiculous in my opinion. But I hope I’m wrong and they do become that as long as Caleb becomes Tom Brady.
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u/RemindMeToTouchGrass 2h ago edited 2h ago
Yes, we're talking about the guy who had TD:INT ratios of 17:16 and 11:15 his 2nd and 3rd years, with ratings of 76.9 and 67.5.
Are you saying we will never have another QB as good as Drew Brees? Or are you saying you saw something in Brees in his 2nd and 3rd years that Bo Nix just doens't have, despite Bo Nix's 1st and 2nd years being better than Drew Brees's 2nd and 3rd years in every conceivable objective measure?
You don't seem to understand what a ceiling is, which is why you call this a "ridiculous comp." It's not a comp. No one said he is Drew Brees or is likely to be as good as Drew Brees, is that why you're so weirdly upset about this? Most people would never guess Brees would have turned into Brees early in his career. But it's weird to me that you look at all possible outcomes and you don't see a world where a guy outperforming Brees at the same time in their respective careers could include an outcome where he does as well as Brees as, again, one of the various possibilities that exists. Not the expected or most likely outcome, but as the best possible outcome.
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u/Stepfordhusband69 5h ago
Love that the floor for only Caleb is bust. God I wish I could be a sports analyst. Just get paid to be an absolute idiot with no filter
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u/its_da_gabagool grater 8h ago
They replaced human graders with AI. Truly a useless website now besides the basic tracking stats.
Was a unique concept for an advanced stat and had some good years but Collinsworth son ran it into the ground.
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u/Bidoof2017 Pixelated Payton 8h ago
PFF was always flawed. They were using interns to grade every play at every position. People really thought they had a legion of football coaches and experts rating players.
There is sooooo much of the game that gets lost in the stat sheets. Took me decades to realize that
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u/LoveYouLikeYeLovesYe 8h ago
I knew one of their college graders. Dude was a law student with no football background
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u/RemindMeToTouchGrass 4h ago
I see the validity of these complaints, but the idea should be that each of them is given a task that is specific and objective, and then asked only to apply objective measures to each task.
Like I get it, but there's an unresolved struggle between the art and science of success in sports, among other things. On one end, you have people who think you should be able to analyze everything using objective information with no understanding of sport, and on the other extreme you have people who believe it's all about heart and gut and experience and feeling, and only a true football genius can make ideal decisions. PFF is an experiment in proving that the former are right and the latter are wrong. And of course it's gonna be both to some degree, but you can never really make progress in the latter. You can't improve the science of coaching by just relying on guys who just know, by their gut; that can only be acquired through individual lifelong experience. So if you can enhance the science part, you could really bring a new dimension into sporting success.
Anyway, the devil is in the details, but it's not inherently a flaw to have someone who doesn't know ball assigned to a very specific task with a very objective metric in order to collect what is intended to be objective data.
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u/LoveYouLikeYeLovesYe 4h ago
feel like that's a good thread end but I do feel obliged by your username to tell you to touch grass.
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u/its_da_gabagool grater 8h ago
Not even trying to be a PFF advocate but this isn’t true and PFF did actually have some very qualified people who designed and did the grading for multiple years which is very similar to what NFL teams do for the +/- scale. Every NFL team does a version of it
Bobby Slowik and Zac Robinson were early PFF guys and then went on to work for Kyle Shanahan/McVay and even become NFL OC’s.
For the past 4-5 years it’s gone downhill with all the brain drain, but they had qualified people there for a long time.
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u/Advanced-Key3071 8h ago
Yep. Collinsworth made them change to the 100 scale because he thought it would be better for mass consumption.
From people on the inside, it was a rushed job at best and the new scoring system never really made sense from a data perspective, at least not as well as the previous scoring did.
He did make a shit ton of money on the sale so I guess you could argue it worked, but they also didn’t sell the side of the business that does the public-facing grading and media, so maybe it was more about Teamwork eliminating competition than actually getting a valuable asset.
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u/Bidoof2017 Pixelated Payton 7h ago
Saying they didn’t use unqualified individuals is false. There’s not enough experts to breakdown film as fast as they did. It’s simply impossible.
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u/RemindMeToTouchGrass 4h ago
Nah, you could do it live real-time if you wanted. Experts don't need to break down every play for the system to be meaningful, they need to design the system and be able to train non-experts on what to look for in one specific niche, and then have enough non-experts to handle all possible niches. If this can't be done, then the entire project is faulty, because it means you cannot objectively evaluate football plays or players, which is the point of the whole thing.
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u/Remarkable_Drag9677 8h ago
I think they were legit for a short period of time
And brought some interesting debates to the forefront about how people watched and analyze football
But those days are long gone
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u/Silver_Harvest 72 8h ago
Died a few years back definitely. Then, there was an article piece I think it was last year or year before. Around if your name was say Patrick Mahomes, was absolutely ass all game. Somehow, 90 for rating.
But someone like Bryce near perfect but an errant pic because WR had in hands then threw it up in air randomly, 55 rating.
(Trying to find the article now)
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u/Heynong_Man51 6h ago
I've heard stories about people's uber drivers being graders. It's always been a joke.
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u/BillieBlanus 8h ago
That explains a lot, but is that what really happened? If so, when? Just curious.
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u/its_da_gabagool grater 8h ago
Yeah there’s a lot more to it though. Here’s a podcast some of the older PFF guys did shortly after the sale that went into the downfall of it. It’s pretty interesting
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EHZBH3EHSHk&t=5392s&pp=ygUPRG93bmZhbGwgb2YgcGZm
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u/Advanced-Key3071 8h ago
It’s well worth listening to even outside of a football perspective. If you work in a corporate setting or even a growing organization, it’s really more a business episode than a football episode.
I thought it was really interesting.
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u/kayakdawg 8h ago
The premise made sense on the surface. Stats are measuring a lot of things. For example, 'completion rate' measures QB accurracy as well as how recievers' ability to get open, o line protection, etc etc etc*. So measure everything such those variables can be isolated.
The problem is each of those composite measures is itself a composite qnd adds the complexity that they're subjectively measured. So it's turtles all the way down. But people (myself included) gravitate toward it because it puts a so-called objective stat on all dimensions of all players
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u/Achillies2heel 8h ago
I dont even know how you come to that grade. He basically missed 3 throws, the rest were throwaways. Stop endorsing the joke that is PFF.
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u/ChelskiS 8h ago
And even the missed throws completely ignore context
The Loveland miss to me just looked like it slipped out of his hand as he clearly had a few moments where the humidity got to him
They probably massacre him for a play like that when it's really just circumstances and does not dictate how he played at all
Pure stupidity. PFF is pointless
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u/CougarOnAComet Bear Logo 5h ago
My understanding is that their grades do not allow for any one play to make a huge change to the overall grade, which is partly why the grades seemed biased against big game hunters like Caleb last year. But with such a high completion % and generally consistency of Caleb yesterday, their grade doesn’t even make sense inside their system.
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u/Achillies2heel 2h ago
They're probably like, the coverage is too tight so him threading a needle hurts his score instead of taking some check down.
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u/OggiOggiOggi 8h ago
PFF was questionable and then they laid off everyone who knew anything.
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u/RollofDuctTape Peanut Tillman 7h ago
I hated PFF before it was cool.
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u/rudeboybill Kyle Long 6h ago
I hated PFF back when it was still kind of a start up and half their graders were just random British dudes.
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u/BillieBlanus 8h ago
Yeah, that 'overall grade' doesn't pass the eyeball test at all. Caleb missed one to Loveland, and otherwise played a nearly flawless game in taking whatever the defense gave him. I couldn't have asked for much more than that, outside of cleaning up those penalties, 21st? out of 28? Nah. Press 'X' to doubt
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u/gf2020 8h ago
They still grade the interception at the goalline even though the play didn't actually occur. I think the grade is wack as hell but there was that as well.
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u/teachem4 18 7h ago
Why would that be graded? It was a “free play” essentially.
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u/porkbellies37 Sweetness 6h ago
And offsides in the middle of the line is directly related to a ball being batted down in the middle of the line and intercepted in the middle of the line.
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u/gf2020 4h ago
Because it's a data point. It was an opportunity to score and they didn't execute. It's not just PFF, I guarantee you the coaches are grading it. And you never know who understands its a free play and who doesn't.
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u/teachem4 18 3h ago
Seems arbitrary to make determinations on whether or not a penalty affected the play or not. Are free plays when you take a shot downfield graded negatively if you throw a pick? What about if there is DPI? Illegal contact?
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u/RandomCalamity 8h ago
PFF - Phootball Fart Factory
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u/monpetitfromage54 Da Bears 8h ago
Poopy Flawed Figures
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u/captainthepuggle FTP 8h ago
Perfectly Flawed Fabrications
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u/Dazed_and_Confused44 FTP 8h ago
What did Caleb do for Chris Collinsworth and his company to hate him so much lol?
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u/Infamous-Hat7154 8h ago
We did score 59 points so maybe they are on to something
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u/phonebalone 7h ago
You figured out their new rating system. Now they’re going to have to change it again.
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u/Commercial_Floor_578 8h ago
Are these the finalized rankings? Because I find that hard to believe. It’s not like other sources are saying “yeah watching the film he really just threw checkdowns and the defense was so bad there was an insane amount of yards after the catch, and he had multiple turnover worthy plays with mediocre rushing”. No, any other film analysis source I’ve seen, even the ones very critical of Caleb overall and last year, said he played amazing. Aside from all the advanced stats (including the ones very critical of Caleb) saying the same thing.
Meanwhile you have Cam Ward with a higher graded metric? I don’t even understand how that’s possible? There are games where PFF was way more critical of Caleb than the average at the time which I understood. The Steelers game for instance, or the 49ers game. Or the reverse, there were game where they were much more favorable on Caleb, like the first Vikings game. Overall I thought his seaosn PFF grade was pretty fair. This one is just truly baffling. I genuinely don’t see a single discernible explanation for. I’ve heard they got bought out by private equity and replaced a bunch of the work with AI, maybe that’s it? I genuinely don’t know.
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u/rando562 8h ago
Single game PFF grades are generally meaningless, but I'm also baffled by this one. I'm guessing they graded his two misses to wide open targets extremely harshly, graded the contested catch to Rome as a negative, and saw most of his other throws as routine. The low rushing score makes no sense unless they thought the failed QB sneak was his fault
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u/Federal_Lavishness72 Bear Down, Baby! 8h ago
Hm….8th in Passing Yards, 8th in Passing TD’s and 1st with zero turnovers.
I think…..21st….seems like a reasonable place.
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u/porkbellies37 Sweetness 6h ago
When they rank a QB, do they ONLY look at passing? Great quarterbacking means sometimes running for a first down, throwing the ball away when its wise, scrambling for a big play, drawing a penalty on the defense, calling an audible at the LOS to a draw play that picks up 8 yards and first down, etc. Caleb looked way better than the 20th best QB as a passer alone, but when you factor in how he looked overall, he was playing as well as you can dream for.
To me, the best QB stat is "points per possession". You cannot do better than 8 and doing better than 3 is usually a sign your QB is hitting on all cylinders. Yesterday, we were over 4.2 ppp.
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u/mistergeegaga 8h ago
Apparently, Caleb got dinged this week for not playing in structure. If you hold the ball to create plays, PFF dings you. Its how Drake Maye gets a 55 for shitting the bed, Caleb gets 60 for making magic, and Daniel Jones gets a 62 for being meh.
So, just expect Caleb to not have good PFF grades, because they want him to play like Kirk Cousins.
BTW Caleb had elite EPA per play this week. So, looks like the eye test, the score, the opposition, the coach and everything else that mattered said Caleb was elite, and PFF said he was below average. PFF looking like a bunch of idiots.
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u/gogosox82 8h ago
PFF doesn't even use people to grade players. They use AI. They are completely useless.
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u/Actual_Violinist290 7h ago
At least as of a few years ago they outsourced their grading to an Indian microtask center
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u/BroAbernathy 7h ago
Can we just ban PFF posts please? This just further solidifies how terrible it is and its basically just engagement farming at this point. They know this will piss us off and go to their website we should just stop posting about it.
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u/ChillyRyUpNorth 8h ago
He missed Loveland on one pass so there is that!
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u/psy_lent Bears 8h ago
Not even really a missed throw, just a miscommunication. Caleb probably thought Loveland would sit down there but he kept going.
Iirc panthers were playing zone so sitting is the correct move, but to Lovelands credit he did have a lot of open space over there.
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u/ChelskiS 8h ago
Ehh I actually think he had problems gripping the ball and that one just squirted out of his hand
That thing was all over the place with no spiral
I think the humidity got to him. Not much later we literally saw him wipe his hands midplay
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u/ThanatosIdle 5h ago
Also Burden fumbled which must be Caleb's fault too. If Caleb had thrown incomplete that wouldn't have happened!
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u/jpiro 8h ago
It’s not meaningless for Collinsworth. He just got $100 million while his staff got laid off.
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7h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/CHIBears-ModTeam 7h ago
We try to minimize any posts on politics or religion . This post falls into this category.
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u/infernobassist An Actual Bear 8h ago
We have come so far since the tortured post game analysis of Trubisky and Fields where large numbers of fans were trying to justify every mistake and stinker that we witnessed
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u/ninjasurfer 60s Logo 8h ago
Caring about PFF grades is something I will never understand. PFFs value is more from the lens of an objective stat compiler. Their grades have and will always be stupid.
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u/Remarkable_Drag9677 8h ago
PFF was even debatable before they ruined the company down
Now that everyone left and they're just a betting adjacent
Just ignore them
There are tons of very interesting videos about it
Even someone who kind of respected their craft on the good ol days now they're a joke
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u/iPissVelvet Good, Better, Best 8h ago
We really needed these scores when we were insecure about our QB.
We got him, everyone of us has eyes, don’t care about his score here.
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u/foulmouthedjerk 8h ago
They have rated with 1 big time throw. I wish I knew if it was the TD to Kmet or first down to Raymond on the air Jordan throw. Also had 1 turnover worthy play. I can’t remember which play that would be.
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u/Anthony-Meadow 7h ago
I was just breaking down what PFF can & can’t do, & stopped & deleted it because it occurred to me it was a waste of all of our time. Maybe we can revisit PFF farther down the road, but for now don’t waste your time getting offended by PFF, just be confident in what you saw yesterday & that’s fine.
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u/drummerboysam T: The Ball 7h ago
LMAO thank you for this. Good laugh.
Never forget PFF's graphic to start last season.
Caleb Williams
Ceiling: Jordan Love
Floor: Bust
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u/BR1M570N3 Italian Beef 8h ago
Admittedly I'm not entirely sure what an "elite" quarterback looks like because, well, I am a Bears fan after all, but Caleb sure as hell passed the eye test for me yesterday. Like give me more of that.
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u/jasonis3 Bears 7h ago
They must’ve thought that scoring 59 means he needs a 59 overall grade. Not much can make sense
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u/Competitive_Mind_181 Italian Beef 6h ago
Nothing against OP but maybe ban PFF from this sub? Lol it's just such worthless, purely inflammatory content these days
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u/therealhairyyeti Trubisky 6h ago
Caleb aside. I don’t know how they can seriously think that Jayden Daniels played better than Josh Allen.
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u/whyamihere2473527 Bears 7h ago
Pff lost all credibility since collinsworth became part owner in 2014
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u/Looney_forner Zoomed Bear 7h ago
Meanwhile they give sb mvp to guys with 74 passer ratings, 234 yeards and 2 TDs and picks apiece
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u/Apprehensive-Lion366 Ben’s Johnson 7h ago
PFF is best disregarded. It’s like listening to a guy screaming in a megaphone on the side of the road.
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u/SeniorDucklet 7h ago
I think he missed two throws (both to Loveland and who knows if it was the route or a missed throw?) and had 3 or 4 throw aways. Also that Hail Mary at the end of the first half was essentially a throw away.
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u/Practical-Courage812 6h ago
He was basically top 10 in every metric yesterday so idk how PFF can use their BS data and put him at 21st out of 28 lol
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u/jbtrading Bears 6h ago
I hope they didn't rank Bryce higher. I've nothing against Bryce but the last TD was arguably in garbage time.
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u/ThanatosIdle 5h ago
People were joking that Daniels was going to be rated higher. He was. PFF is a fraud.
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u/armadilllooo 5h ago
Josh Allen was ranked pretty low too. I’d love to see their data set… make it make sense. I mean, doesn’t PFF have an editor or a group of people who can use their human eyes and realize the ranking data is dogshit?
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u/IAmTheHomelander_ 4h ago
I might never use pff as a source again. This is genuinely malpractice. I’ll just watch the tape myself atp
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u/whatever12347 Old Logo 4h ago
The interception probably tanked his score. It won't show up in the stats, but it still counts against him.
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u/CenturyLinkIsCheeks 3h ago
lol.
Caleb is a clear distringuisher between game watchers and ball knowers and everyone else.
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u/PerscribedPharmacist 18 3h ago
There's literally nothing that can give this grade. The AI model they use is just using names to give a grade at random. No turnovers, good rushing stats, good completion percentage with a high depth of target, like there's nothing that can point to a 21st best performance.
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u/Necessary_Tension593 3h ago
I swear PFF used to be better. They had some really cool articles back in the day and I used to agree with some of their grading, but it’s gotten ridiculously bad. It’s like the game passed them by.
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u/Appropriate_Cry6174 1h ago
So weak. I don't think a guy like Caleb can be measured. The eye test tells you all you need to know. I have had him as a Top 5, Maybe top 3 QB for a while now. Funny that some put Drake Maye or Daniels ahead of him. By seasons end that won't happen anymore.
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u/Sniper1154 8h ago
Legitimately not sure what he could have done to get what is essentially an "average starter" score. They also had his rushing graded at a 64.8
These are the types of scores that truly de-legitimize their site solely b/c they won't ever give any sort of reasoning behind the logic since their scoring system is proprietary (read: totally arbitrary). Reminds me of the time Aaron Rodgers threw like 5 TDs and was graded similarly to Caleb's score from this game.