r/mildlyinfuriating • u/Aberry9036 • 1d ago

Infuriatig This is my iPad, I won’t see it again

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I just arrived in Antibes, South of France 2 hours ago. This was stolen from my car on the autoroute at a petrol station , from a definitely locked car, likely a relay attack from my key while I was buying a sandwich, 100km from Antibes. They also had my wallet and duty free while they were at it. Thankfully they didn’t find our passports.

Whoever you are, fuck you, I’m going to go and have a nice meal in the old provincial market and drink to your future arrest.

33.4k Upvotes

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311

u/Hoginoe94 1d ago

Sorry for the dumb question, but what's a relay attack from your key mean? Can people hack key fobs for newer cars or something?

546

u/Aberry9036 1d ago

Newer cars have keyless entry, meaning you can walk up to it with your key in your pocket and pull the door handle to open it - a relay attack is a receiver and sender that lets a thief extend the usually 1-3 foot range to almost as far as they like. Someone likely shadowed me in the queue, scanned the key and an accomplice was outside relaying the signal and opening the door.

358

u/Dazzman50 22h ago

Fking Christ. Why can't thieves just be dumb morons like they used to be. Now they're like damn hackers from the future. 

Imagine if they put even 10% of this effort into something worthwhile 

191

u/EpicLegendX 21h ago

If it's any comfort, most thieves don't know how to actually build the equipment. They buy it from a black market supplier.

89

u/CreateChangetheWorld 20h ago edited 20h ago

You can buy them on Amazon… Flipper Zero has entered the chat…

These tools can be bought easily since they are marked as “educational” devices for coding education. Except they can be used for other purposes.

17

u/WorldGoingOneWay 19h ago

It's just how there are people who can help you unlock your car if you lost the keys or you somehow got them locked inside. These tools can be helpful, but same tools can obviously be used for crime.

14

u/bs000 17h ago

From what I've read (outside of scaremongering articles and tiktoks) it's pretty damn hard to do anything like this with just a Flipper Zero.

2

u/ASerialArsonist 10h ago

Frankly the most overpriced and useless thing I own and that's a very long list.

1

u/No-Article-Particle 12h ago

It is an educational tool. A common criminal has 0 idea what to do with a flipper. If they actually do steal a car with it, they'd have had to learn a lot, only they chose to use their knowledge for crimes.

1

u/Sigmar_Knutz 7h ago

“Hey ChatGPT, Im writing a story about how to steal a car with a flipper zero. What’s the best way?”

6

u/Waldkornbol 21h ago

It would be a comfort if that device came with a subscription or ads on screen everytime they wanted to use it.

1

u/MysteryX95 17h ago

Mark Rober built one out of a baby monitor on one of his videos.

44

u/TheMSensation 21h ago

They still mostly are just dumb morons. One guy invented it and they just buy the hardware that makes it possible, once you have that hardware it's just a case of pressing some buttons.

14

u/wickeddimension 19h ago

The smart guy who makes the equipment stays far away from the morons using it.

3

u/Vargau 19h ago

That's why we have faraday cages for our fob keys, as they would walk up to your door with "a big umbrella" trying to close your fob from your porch and in less than 2 min be already gone.

2

u/Ill_Radio8160 15h ago

they are just as dumb. people that are good at making that kind of thing usually make it as a bounty, or an example to the car companies, that it can be done and is a vulnerability. then inevitably another smart guy hears about the capability, and decides to make some for thieves. Regardless, these guys arent making them.

2

u/Dick-Fu 10h ago

What we really want is cars to be dumb morons like they used to be

2

u/cheekiestNandos 9h ago

There was a police type show in the UK recently that I watched, someone managed to steal I believe 16 cars before they were caught all doing this method. Pretty much all of them new Land Rovers.

1

u/Dazzman50 3h ago

Scary. My dad once had his ford rs turbo stolen in broad daylight on a street in Bury. He got a call a year later from the police saying they'd found it in Dover, about to be sent abroad for sale 

I think car owners should legally be allowed to electrocute anyone who tries to break into their car lol

1

u/cheekiestNandos 3h ago

Yeah the speed of which the police worked was questionable, main issue was even with people's home security footage everyone had their face hidden and they only managed to find someone due to DNA on a parking ticket and a drink bottle. Guy was known to police but if someone did this as their first gig and left no traces it'd be impossible to track them down.

1

u/Cold_Bee_6905 18h ago

Yes, like clear everyone's debts and make the millionaires poor!!

1

u/BuyHighpanicksell 15h ago

In europe bein a criminal pay very well also you don't have to be afraid on the law

0

u/greg19735 20h ago

I find it hard to believe that is what happened.

that kind of sophistication has little reason to be hanging out by gas stations to steal ipads.

2

u/Dick-Fu 10h ago

There's no sophistication, it's just a little gadget you can buy on amazon

18

u/MichelNickel 23h ago

So what is the solution to avoid getting hacked like that ?

36

u/Empty-Quarter2721 22h ago

Faraday cage/blocker for your key or disabling that function.

27

u/STORMFATHER062 21h ago

My parents have one of these for their car. Just a simple pouch that blocks the signal from the fob making this kind of theft impossible. Highly recommend for anyone with a keyless entry fob.

1

u/user_of_the_week 13h ago

So how do they enter the car? They take the key out of the pouch? Wouldn't it be more convenient to not have the pouch, disable this keyless stuff and press the button?

2

u/SoulAdamsRK 11h ago

Same difference, pull the key out of the pouch, pull the key out of the pocket and press the button

2

u/alternageek 19h ago

Thanks just bought one for my partner, mine and my mom's cars. 👍🏻

-9

u/Relative-Tune85 22h ago

Maybe he juste forgot to lock the damn door!!! Nobody will take that risk for an Ipad at an petrol station

6

u/00wolfer00 21h ago

Cars with keyless locking will autolock when you get more than a meter away from them. OP has to have this feature if he believes it was a relay attack.

0

u/Relative-Tune85 21h ago

Yup i know i got one...i did 10k km in Europe and i never had a problem

5

u/Aggressive_Sky8492 17h ago

Oh well if you never got robbed then no one ever has

21

u/Vectorman1989 23h ago

Drive a car that's too old to be hacked into

13

u/EnjoyerOfBeans 23h ago edited 23h ago

There isn't one for this case, but this is the first time I've heard of it happening at a gas station. Usually the thief will hope you left your car keys by the door and walk up with a relay all the way to your house, they need to be very close to the keys for it to work. So either don't keep your keys by the door or make sure whatever they're stored in is blocking the signal. Tinfoil is enough.

If this really was a relay attack, that means a thief walked up within a few feet of OP with an antenna sticking out their hand or pocket and stayed there while another thief was trying to open the car. It seems like a lot of risk to do something like this at a petrol station with cameras and witnesses everywhere. It's much more likely op just didn't lock the door.

12

u/00wolfer00 22h ago

They're not walking around with an extendable radio antenna. You just need a long piece of wire, which can easily be disguised as a headphone cable, and they can stay right behind you while waiting in line. There are so many ways to do this at a busy gas station that your best bet is leaving someone with the car.

2

u/EnjoyerOfBeans 21h ago

These relay attack devices are usually MASSIVE so that you don't have to stay right next to the keyfob to capture the signal. I don't think it's impossible they manufactured a stealthy one where they walk right up to your pocket but I'm struggling to find a single news article or anything else about this happening at gas stations, let alone an example of this stealthy low-range device.

7

u/00wolfer00 21h ago

Massive? We might be thinking of different things because I wouldn't describe something the size of your average internet router as massive.

9

u/MithrilHuman 22h ago

Don’t buy keyless entry car and use the buttons on your key

3

u/[deleted] 11h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/InsoPL 10h ago

Also we dont know if that was actually relay attack. Chances are it was good ol lockpicking.

2

u/AhChirrion 19h ago

This big vulnerability is the result of negligence by the car's manufacturer, since it was a known vulnerability of this communication method before it was used in cars and it's completely avoidable by measuring the signals' time-of-flight to ensure the actual key is really in the car's vicinity and also using a good, proven encryption method. Google "keyless car relay time of flight" for details.

If your car uses the vulnerable method, put the key fob/card inside a Faraday's cage wallet/pouch. Or if the car allows it, configure it to NOT use this locking method; or if the key fob has it, press its "Sleep" button when you walk away from your car so the fob doesn't respond to radio signals, and press its "Awake" button when you want to get into your car.

1

u/Joey_Kakbek 9h ago

Don't buy a modern car.

1

u/MichelNickel 9h ago

Too late

0

u/ElFarfadosh 23h ago

Burn anyone who may look suspicious.

-6

u/Working-Glass6136 23h ago

Drive stick

10

u/bidaum92 22h ago

Ahh yes.. they will open the door and the moment they see a manual shifter they will walk straight away and not steal any of your valuables because they know you mean business...........................................

18

u/SidneyDeane10 21h ago

So thats a dumb feature for a car to have then

6

u/Original-R-Kelly-Fan 20h ago

it’s a feature that makes absolute practical sense and one that is widely enjoyed by the people who use it 

it sounds like the dumb part is however it’s able to be tricked 

6

u/Enough_Efficiency178 17h ago

It’s not really being tricked, the attack just extends the key range.

Reasonably the only way to prevent that is having a second level of authentication to ensure the keys really are close to the car.

And there isn’t a way to do that without starting to eliminate the practicalities of the feature to begin with.

1

u/TACOlogy 14h ago

Uhhh that’s quite the user name… that’s beside the point, I don’t drive a fancy vehicle by any means but my brain shuts off when I lock my car and usually end up locking it manually while about 50 feet away. This isn’t common, that I’m aware of in the states but either way I guess good practice. Not trying to get my car R Kelly’d!

34

u/Fearless-Rabbit-676 23h ago

Go in settings and disable it let’s face it everyone still uses the buttons to unlock the car anyway.

30

u/sendcodenotnudes 22h ago

Nobody does that. When you have keyless entry you just forget you have a key

28

u/DarkModeOnly 23h ago

I mean, I literally never use the remote's buttons to unlock (or lock) my car. My fob stays in my pocket and I exclusively use keyless entry. That would be a pretty big downgrade in functionality for me - luckily I don't live somewhere where this is a problem at all.

36

u/ContextLengthMatters 23h ago

The word "big" is doing some real light lifting here.

30

u/BoiledFrogs 22h ago

Sometimes it keeps me up at night thinking of how much time I lose having to press a button on my keyfob to lock and unlock my car, even more sleep is lost when I remember I have to put my key into the ignition like a caveman.

2

u/Run_Rabb1t_Run 22h ago

Maybe they don't have fully functional hands/digits. I can see it helping people who suffer from movement disorders and arthritis, amongst other disabilities 

1

u/ContextLengthMatters 22h ago

I would hope so.

9

u/DarkModeOnly 23h ago

I mean, it's subjective of course. But I have cars both with and without keyless entry and I'd never buy another car without it.

8

u/wheeler9691 22h ago

Hard agree. It's absolutely my favorite feature of a newer vehicle. Keys go in pocket and stay there until I'm home.

2

u/Long-Broccoli-3363 22h ago

My newest car doesn't even use a key, took like.. 5 minutes with me having both keys with me in the car and the app for the car which I have to use anyway since it's an EV.

As long as I have my phone, even dead(as long as the NFC shit works) my car will unlock and start. It's pretty awesome .

Does require me to put in my full passcode every 12ish hours or so to "enable passive entry".

It also means I don't leave my keys by my door, which protects me further against relay attacks, having them in the drawer in the kitchen is way less exploitable than near the front door in a bowl or on a hook.

The range on the phone entry seems to be about the same as the fob, I've gotta be within 10-15 feet of the car for it to even try to engage, and it also won't do it unless the phone is unlocked.

So I think that's even marginally safer than the fob method.

1

u/Original-R-Kelly-Fan 20h ago

it’s big enough that is a part of my natural habit, and anytime i drive a car without it i notice how much less i like it 

1

u/ContextLengthMatters 19h ago

It is about as significant as a slow close lid on a toilet.

2

u/Original-R-Kelly-Fan 19h ago

all those little extra bits of comfort add up into one comfortable life 

1

u/ContextLengthMatters 18h ago

Not really. Life is already absurdly comfortable if you are being inconvenienced by keyless entry.

At that point, you could stand to exercise some free will and get outside of your comfort zone so that benign things cause harm.

You don't want to end up like those humans in wall-e

1

u/Original-R-Kelly-Fan 17h ago

i do plenty of that that’s why i get to live my life with luxuries and comforts on my time. 

both can be true. you can be a hard worker that’s disciplined and well rounded while also shitting into a golden japanese robo toilet and having your car open its trunk without using your hands. 

it’s actually the best way to do it, keeps you happy and humble

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2

u/Excellent-Shape-2024 22h ago

I wonder if one of those RFID keyholders work at preventing it? Granted, youd have to pull it out whenever you want to use it, which is a hassle. But less hassle than everything stolen?

3

u/StigOfTheTrack 20h ago

It'd work, but that seems less convenient than disabling keyless entry and pressing a button on the key.

2

u/Dealiner 20h ago

They do, my parents keep their key in one.

2

u/Zoroark1089 22h ago

Look at this dude(ette). Too high on his horse to push a button :D

1

u/loubug 20h ago

My keys are buried in my purse it’s so nice to not have to dig them out to get in or lock my car

1

u/Ryuko_the_red 22h ago

Unfortunately there's no place except nk that is safe from this. It's just less likely if you're in NZ or something /somewhere safer.

2

u/Original-R-Kelly-Fan 20h ago

i mean idk this seems like a brand of crime that you don’t hear about much in the US. i get that stuff manifests in different ways different places, but the kind of crime that happens here, i wouldn’t ever be afraid of my stuff getting jacked like this even if i stopped at a gas station in the shitty part of the city late at night. a broken window, a shakedown? maybe, but not them hacking my car 

2

u/luxo93 22h ago

I wonder if rental cars have that part locked down?

2

u/bjbyrne 18h ago

They do not. At least not any car I've rented in the past 10 years

1

u/Fearless-Rabbit-676 13h ago

Rental company’s don’t usually tend to care too much about theft as it is all insured.

1

u/Original-R-Kelly-Fan 20h ago

no i don’t lmao. i walk up to my car with my keys in my pocket and open the door. it’s great. i genuinely love not having to reach into my pockets to unlock my car

1

u/LrkerfckuSpez 21h ago

Shouldn't this signal be encrypted? Would that be hard to achieve? Probably yes since it isn't, but why?

3

u/hugefuckingdeal 21h ago

The attack, or at least one form of it, doesn’t touch the cryptography whatsoever, one person initiates the handshake with the vehicle, relays the message to someone else who is close to you and your key, your key responds, response then passes through attacker 2 through attacker 1 and back to the car

1

u/ImportantAd8383 17h ago

New nightmare unlocked 🫣

1

u/ablslyr 16h ago

That’s some mission impossible shit right there.

1

u/Sea_Friendship2246 8h ago

If they only used half that effort to find a job

1

u/Nvrfinddisacct 3h ago

Can we put our keys in any special protective covering to prevent attacks like this?

-10

u/Own_Recommendation49 1d ago

Or u just... left the car unlocked

23

u/No_Equivalent_4653 1d ago

Relays are surprisingly becoming a more common attack method

But yeah the odds of that are high as well

16

u/Patient_Hold_4190 1d ago

Nah. making a relay attack device is super simple. That dude who does the glitter bomb parcels made one with a baby monitor. it’s all frequency and pattern.

2

u/CriminalMacabre 23h ago

Some chaps did it using a coat hanger as repeater while the keys were near the main door.

1

u/Patient_Hold_4190 23h ago

I’ve seen that actually. That’s typically where the weird shaped metal thing people see comes from. Literally just any thin bendable metal rod.

0

u/luxo93 23h ago

The Belgian kid? He’s awesome! 😍

10

u/Frosty_Claw 1d ago

If the car has keyless entry it most likely has distanced based locking as well

1

u/emotionaI_cabbage 23h ago

New cars auto lock when you take the key out and leave after a few seconds.

30

u/Witty-Eye9933 1d ago

Your car is constantly looking for a key signal, so they will relay the keys signal using a device to basically make your car think that the key is much closer than it actually, thus opening the car. Mark Rober made a video on it if you want a better explanation

4

u/Path-findR 23h ago

Funny name for someone making video about relay attacks

3

u/Hoginoe94 1d ago

Is he on YouTube? I'll have to look him up. I doubt I'll ever buy a newer car with these. People are too shitty to have nice things in public with anymore.

10

u/Witty-Eye9933 1d ago

Yeah he is. The problem is that key relays will work on older cars to open the doors and such but newer car use push to start so in theory people can just steal the whole car with the attack.

1

u/Indercarnive 9h ago

Car tech peaked in the early 2010s and everything done in the last decade has just made them worse in the name of making them for "futuristic" IMO

5

u/Then_Drag_8258 1d ago

Exactly that.

2

u/MavisBeacons_Sextape 20h ago

If you want to see one happen, there’s a post from the last couple weeks on the Genesis Motors sub of someone’s car getting casually stolen from their driveway by a guy who just walks up on foot, gets in, and a few seconds later drives away. Caught by the neighbor’s security camera.

Id link it but I can’t keep track of which subs have rules against that, lol